What If Christianity Was Never About the Rules

Matt Edmundson: noise in. There's no headphones.

Anna Kettle: Okay, good evening, welcome to Crowd Church. It's great to be here tonight. Um, tonight I am joined by the wonderful Matt. Matt, say hi.

Matt Edmundson: Say hi. Good evening, welcome everybody, great to be here with you. Uh, yeah, enjoying it already. It's the reason I'm stalling slightly is because you're in that chair and I'm in this one.

Anna Kettle: Is it knocking you off? We're sitting in wrong places.

Matt Edmundson: No, no, you're I quite like the fact you're in charge tonight.

Anna Kettle: This is the thing. Matt's not the main host tonight. He's put me in the main host chair. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Edmundson: But now he can't cope with the fact that he's not in charge.

Anna Kettle: But he's still got all these things in front of him, like a big laptop. And yeah, he's still kind of in charge, to be honest. But anyway, we'll see how we get on being in the wrong chairs. Yeah. We're also joined tonight by Will.

Will Sopwith: Hello, hello. And I'm loving the insecurity. It's going to be a fun conversation stream.

Anna Kettle: It's just nice to keep Matt on his toes a little bit, isn't it?

Will Sopwith: Absolutely.

Matt Edmundson: Matt Insecure, that's where we want him.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, so, um, yeah, so tonight you're going to be sharing with us in a second, Will, on, um, on the next bit of our series. And tonight we're talking about this being space at the table, so I'm looking forward to that, talking about Jesus eating with the tax collector, did you say?

Matt Edmundson: Yep.

Anna Kettle: Brilliant. And, um, I can't really tell you much else because before we went on air we were too busy talking about sports. You know, it's a sporting week, it's the World Cup. And it's Wimbledon, so we've just been talking about all our sports watching. So if there's any sports fans out there, tell us what you've been watching today.

Will Sopwith: So, well, Anna, where do you sit on the whole closing schools so that kids can stay up and watch the footy debate?

Anna Kettle: Is that a thing? It's not happening at my school.

Will Sopwith: It's a thing. I'm absolutely astonished by it, to be honest.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Will Sopwith: People are calling for a bank holiday.

Anna Kettle: I mean, I would love that if they were also closing work for parents, but I haven't heard anything about that.

Matt Edmundson: So yeah, I'm not speaking on that. Yeah.

Anna Kettle: No, my son won't be staying up till 1 AM to watch England play tonight, and neither will I. So, yeah. Anyway, on from football, well, I think we should just hand over to you.

Matt Edmundson: Are you not going to say hi to people in the comments?

Anna Kettle: Oh, this is why Matt should just be in charge, because he's never happy with how anyone else hosts.

Matt Edmundson: Sorry, Anna.

Anna Kettle: Matt, do you just want to say it?

Matt Edmundson: No, no, no.

Anna Kettle: No, the camera's on you now.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, is it? Okay. Marco's in the comment. Hey, Marco. We've got Ros, Catherine, Elise. Say again.

Anna Kettle: I can't see the comments, hence, like, why it's easier for you to do it.

Matt Edmundson: Anyway, good evening to everyone in the comments. If you're in the comments or if you're on YouTube now live, do say hello. Always good to hear from you. And as Will goes through his talk, any questions, thoughts, ideas that you have, comments, stories you want to share, Put them in the comments because we love to get to those, uh, in conversation street after the talk. So, um, anyway, that's it. I'm sorry I interrupted.

Anna Kettle: No, it's good. It's good. Someone has to do this properly.

Will Sopwith: It's good to have a professional in the room, Matt.

Anna Kettle: It's good to have a professional. Right. I think we need to—

Will Sopwith: If I'm the professional, help us.

Matt Edmundson: Please, Lord, help.

Anna Kettle: Okay.

Will Sopwith: Right, well, our topic this evening is taken from a reading in the early chapters of Mark, which is a gospel in the New Testament, and I'm calling it "Space at the Table." Now, in these chapters, if you've read them, Jesus is really on a roll of challenging protocol. Revolutionary in every way. And for those of you being part of Crowd, you'll know that is our theme, Jesus the Revolutionary. So first in Mark, there's a public encounter with an evil spirit, a man possessed by an evil spirit. But this isn't in the street, uh, this is in the synagogue. Just at Jesus's presence there, the spirit cries out in alarm. And I read that and I thought, how many years had that man faithfully come to synagogue with nothing happening? How many Sabbaths had the demonic safely coexisted with the worshiping community? Until Jesus came to preach. Then he disappears to pray in the hills when everyone is looking for him. He's hit the big time with a growing following, um, to be honest, any itinerant preacher would surely dream of, and then he just quietly disappears off the map without so much as a word. Soon after that, he not only healed a leper, but he touched him as well. And Mike talked about that a few weeks ago. That was unthinkable. And then immediately before the encounter we're reading this evening, Jesus forgives a paralyzed man's sins. He also did the impossible miracle of restoring this man's ability to walk, but it was the pronouncement of forgiveness that really shocked and surprised those with it that were there. So in, uh, the early— these early chapters of Mark, Jesus has thrown a grenade into what everyone expects. Of a rabbi teacher. He's upending hundreds of years of religious tradition. He's challenging everything the priests, the vicars, the bishops of the day thought to be true. Culturally, he just will not stay in his lane. So it's really no wonder that he started to get pushback, and we see that then throughout the rest of the gospel, this kind of enmity between the religious leaders and Jesus. But the way Mark writes it, these stories all happened in the first 60 or so verses of his gospel. It's only the introduction. But today's— so today's account, the calling of Levi the tax collector, and he's also known as Matthew, uh, Matthew who wrote his own gospel. So I'm just going to read, um, and if you've got a Bible and you want to follow along, do. It's Mark chapter 2 13-17. Mark chapter 2, verse 13-17. Dan might put it in the chat if he's really on the ball. Oh, okay, go on then, Matt. So once again, Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him. While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples. But there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law, who were Pharisees, saw him eating with the sinners, and tax collectors. They asked his disciples, 'Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?' On hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It's not the healthy who need a doctor, but those who are ill. I've not come to call the righteous, but sinners.' It's in Matthew 2. So as we've seen from my little introduction, Jesus was already pushing, pushing the boundaries in terms of unexpected behavior. And this story feels like it's another very serious and deliberate step into controversy. What on earth was a clean-living man claiming to be a religious leader doing with the despised and the defiled? To enter their house was bad enough, but to sit down and share food with them communicated friendship, kinship even. To eat with someone was to accept them, to treat them as equal. And it would have been assumed by those witnessing this that by doing this, Jesus was condoning their so-called sinful lives, perhaps even identifying with their behavior. It was scandalous. I was trying to think of a modern analogy in our culture and all I could think of, and I'd be interested in conversation street in this, all I could think of was the tyranny of the school cafeteria. There was an unspoken protocol, certainly in the secondary school I went to. No one wanted to stand out or risk judgment or ridicule during those overly sensitive years of defining your social status that school was. So for most of us, and of course there was a handful of more mature and wise and generous people, to be honest, but for most of us, there were some people you just did not sit with. For some of us, we were those people. And I sadly remember the gossip and sniggering behind hands, the sidelong glances if you sat in the wrong place. Who you sat with directly impacted your standing in that kind of microcosm pecking order of school. Now, days long gone, thank goodness, but this story is a little bit like that. It's that same kind of public scrutiny of like, who is he sitting with? Perhaps a better example though is the story of an Indian woman called Pandita Ramabai. Ramabai was born in 1858 in Madras in India, and her father was a Hindu priest and Sanskrit scholar. Now, he was a high caste, which basically meant high social standing, an educated man who took the very unusual step of teaching his daughter to read and speak Sanskrit, a skill then reserved only for men. Now, there was some societal shame even in that decision, and he ended up bringing up his family in the woods to shield them from some of that cultural blowback of his daughters knowing how to read. But Ramabai was so skilled that she was honored in Calcutta at the age of 20 by being given the name Pandita, which basically means learned one. She was also passionate about the marginalized and forgotten in her society of the time. And this was fueled further by becoming one of them. Uh, she was a young woman, um, who was then both orphaned and bereaved. She lost her husband as well, and she had a young daughter of her own to provide for. But she responded by campaigning and writing, and eventually at the age of 31, she founded a center for widows and orphans like she had been, but of all castes, where they could gain skills and an education and independence.

Matt Edmundson: Good stuff.

Will Sopwith: But there was significant hostility, not only because she, a high-caste woman, was so closely engaged with and living with low-caste women, but because she was also equipping them to escape that isolating prejudice of the the patriarchy of the time. She too was not staying in her lane. What was her inspiration? I think it'd be true to say that she always had a strong sense of injustice, but at 25, it was her learning about Jesus that really seemed to supercharge it. She knew the Sanskrit scriptures backwards and how the nature of God they revealed had been used to justify discrimination. Against so-called low-born families, and also used for the domination of women. Now, she was brought up with the idea that God was intangible, except through spiritual practice that could reveal the divinity already inside you. Many believe the same today, but that spiritual practice largely related to a hierarchy of your ability and social standing, of your education, your ability to do that, to access the priesthood. It wasn't really open to all. And then she met Jesus, a tangible representation of God's grace and acceptance for all. Jesus, a historical account of demonstrated radical love. And I'm sure she read this very story in Mark that, that we've read. Jesus breaking down social barriers and welcoming all to the table. She eventually went on to translate the Bible into her native language so that all could read it for themselves and find this same accepting God. So back to Jesus at the table. I think part of the reason Jesus associating with sinners, as the scripture calls them, was so difficult to accept was that the religious leaders really had no narrative that anything could change. These leaders, I don't think, were bad people. They just had bad assumptions. They thought people were like they were because of their choices, their family background, their ethnicity, or even as judgment for what an ancestor had done. And we read accounts throughout the New Testament that would support that. Transformation was not expected. That man possessed by an evil spirit, he was tolerated in the synagogue. The lepers were just living out their sentence of social isolation and disfigurement until death. The paralyzed man had clearly built up a debt of sin by his life choices and was now presumably incapacitated as a result. It was his fault. It was just his lane. This was the prevailing thought of the day. There was really no script for transformation until Jesus walked into town. And Jesus clearly challenges Levi in this passage to change, to leave his job and the unrighteousness it involved, and to follow Jesus. But it wasn't just the hope of transformation that Jesus confronted his contemporaries with. I mean, that was radical enough. What do you mean individual circumstances can change? We don't have to just accept the status quo. That in itself was radical. But it was also the way he went about it that so blew everyone's minds, not least these religious people that we read about here. He touched He sat, he proclaimed unheard of things, and he ate. Didn't he care about his reputation? There was no virtue signaling with Jesus. What you saw was what you got. But given there clearly was some transformation for Levi, what next? What was the right way to go about such things? And unpacking the scenario a little more, there are perhaps two things that might have been expected compared to what actually happened. The first thing is what might have been expected is that once Levi left his tax booth, followed Jesus, he would also have left all his previous associates. Given that they had similarly bad reputations and were clearly not the right sort of company, But instead, he invites them all in. He throws a party, and Jesus seems entirely comfortable joining them. Secondly, perhaps it was expected that Jesus would set a bar of expected behavior for Levi, maybe wait for him to meet it. So if you're going to follow me, this is, this is the deal, this is what needs to change, this is what needs to happen. Do this, stop doing that, prove yourself, and then follow me. But instead, Jesus sits down to eat with them. He meets Levi where he is. He invites him to follow step by step. Jesus is right there to share the journey. And we see from these verses, Jesus didn't feel any threat of contamination. As maybe others would. Instead, he entered into this community of brokenness and shame. He was not interested in living in isolated purity, but in bringing gold out into the messy marketplace, light into the darkness. And what a fantastic line to explain his approach: it's not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick. But I don't think Jesus was doing this just to get a reputation as a non-conformist. We read elsewhere in the Gospels that he was often deeply moved by his encounters with ordinary people. We read of his heart going out to people. His behavior flowed directly from a sense of justice, but also of compassion, just like Ramabai The Indian lady, worthy of following for sure. A couple of other bits about this story. Jesus aside, what were the disciples wrestling with as they sat there, do you think? Were they feeling tarred by the company their teacher was suddenly keeping? Are they feeling awkward? It's against all their kind of cultural expectation? Were they wrestling with their own prejudice as good, upstanding Jews? Or were they actually more at home here, keeping it real, rather than in the synagogue with all its outward show and expectation of behavior? And what about Levi's friends? This holy celebrity choosing their company I wonder if you know what it feels like to have someone famous, or someone that you hugely respect, choose to come and sit with you, to talk with you, where there's a whole crowd clamoring for their attention. They sit down with you. It's an amazing feeling. So in wrapping up, what does Jesus say to you through this story? Are you a shocked righteous one? Are you an awkward companion? Or are you a grateful sinner? What does this story reveal about your own motivations or perspectives and assumptions? And what response does Jesus model to you? Are you aware of the lane that you are keeping? Or are you actively seeking how to escape it, to see this kind of transformation in the unexpected? If you were going to eat with someone unexpected and perhaps a little shocking in order to bring God's gracious light, who would that be? And a final thought Don't allow your expectations of Jesus to get in the way of really seeing him. These religious leaders had an expectation of how Jesus should behave. And we have all sorts of barriers. We— how we expect God to, well, treat those who are sinful or even evil, how, how God deals with suffering. There's all sorts of things that we expect of God that may block our view, really, of who Jesus is and what he's doing. So don't let, don't let that get in the way as well. Anyway, there's a few questions for our conversation, so as Matt said, please do chip in in the chat, uh, with other questions. And back to you, Anna.

Anna Kettle: Wonderful. Thanks, Will. That was so good. Uh, just such a lot of content in there that we can have a chat about and start to unpack. Um, yeah, just what a great final question that you finished on around, you know, what are expectations of Jesus like? Like, how do we expect him to be? Because often I, I think my own views— I was just reflecting as you were talking and often think my own expectations of what Jesus is like or what he should do or how he should behave is way too small. I think so many of us, whether we've been Christians for a long time, like some of us around this table, or maybe we're just new to faith, or just very at the beginning of exploring what Christianity is all about. I, I think we can all be guilty of thinking too small and expecting too little of Jesus. And so I love this passage because it blows it out of the water, doesn't it? The religious expectations of the way a lead— you know, Jesus should behave as a Jewish leader, as a, you know Yeah, it just blows out the cultural expectations of who you should and shouldn't hang out with and how you should behave and what's proper. And we still have those cultural— but, you know, they're different today. We don't live 2,000 years ago in the Middle East, but we do still have those kind of so many different cultural expectations and lines. You talked about drawing lines, and we all have our own cultural boundaries and lines and places we will go and won't go, and people we do like and don't like, and in and out. And yeah, it's different today, isn't it, in our culture? But we still, we judge, we have expectations of what people will be like. Yeah, it's challenging. And Jesus just blows it all out of the water and is like, I come for the people that are broken and don't look like religious people should. And yeah, I love it. What did you think, Matt?

Matt Edmundson: I, I, yes, I, I always love listening to Will talk. Um, it's just, you're so calming in your voice.

Anna Kettle: Yeah. And he speaks about half the speed of me and you.

Matt Edmundson: He does, doesn't he? Have you noticed that? And it's like, and it's very calm.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: And very, we're going to talk about Jesus now.

Anna Kettle: It's not just that, it's also good content as well.

Matt Edmundson: It is, it's really good. And the way you deliver is great. I only wish I could do it as well as you, Will. Um, but I, I love this idea, um, that you mentioned that the thing that stood out was this, this idea that Jesus came for the sick. Um, it's not those that are well that need the doctor, it's the sick. Um, it's a well-known saying, isn't it, of Jesus? Um, but actually, whilst it's well known, it's also quite profound because we We often think that Jesus tries to ignore the sick, especially if they're a Democrat or if they're Republican, do you know what I mean? Or if they're Tory or if they're Labour or whatever. Jesus is going to ignore those over there. Um, whereas Jesus is like, no, no, I, I came for the sick. And, and I, I quite like that. I quite like, um, I mean, I often joke that I am in fact God's favorite, as you all know. Um, And whilst there may be an element of truth to this, there is also the truth that actually God is for everybody, isn't he? And, and he came for everybody. Um, and I suppose the thing that we, we never really talk about is everyone's sick, right? So when Jesus said, I came for the sick and not the righteous, well, that's everyone, which I, which I think is quite fascinating, isn't it? And it's, um And I wonder which, going back to your question, which camp do you put yourself in? It's like, well, do I think I'm okay? Do I think I'm a bit sick? Do I think I'm totally fine? And it's quite a sobering question, I think, in many ways.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because yeah, you're right, everyone's sick. And you think about that story and the religious leaders, the people that that thought they really had it together at the time. Yeah, they'd missed the point as far as Jesus was concerned. They were so wrapped up in their own religiosity. And then equally, those that were like sinners and, yeah, you know, broken, they'd also missed it. But also the disciples were still learning as well. Like, yeah, they're trying, just like we all try, do you know what I mean? But they were getting it wrong lots. So yeah, you're right, there's this whole spectrum in Jesus.

Matt Edmundson: Well, it also deals with this fact that, um, this belief that I've got to have everything sorted out before I become a Christian, right? I'll become a Christian when I stop doing this over here, or I'll just— I'll go and stop that, or I'll go and sort that out and then I'll become a Christian. Um, and it's that— and, and those verses, I think, put that whole concept or that idea aside and it says actually that's not what you need Jemaine, it's like, no, no, now's good. Yeah, don't, don't try and figure it out before you become a Christian. That's the whole point, Matt. I'm going to help you figure it out, right? So, um, that I quite— I, I, again, just from these verses you can learn so much, can't you?

Will Sopwith: Just— no, and I, I don't think I'd noticed that from this until I was rereading it and thinking about doing this talk, that the fact that Jesus doesn't Like Levi doesn't say, oh yeah, come to my house. Yeah, I'm going to invite some friends. And Jesus doesn't go, oh no, we don't do that anymore. No, no, no, you stick with us. Yeah, come for dinner with us. We'll, we'll do our thing. That's not a good crowd. You need to stop seeing people. Yeah, Jesus was like, yeah, cool.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, yeah.

Will Sopwith: And there's something so— the more— I mean, the way he does it, I just absolutely love. There's nothing, nothing performative. There's nothing grandstanding. He's just quietly throws a grenade. He just blows it all apart just by his kind of activity. And it's almost everyone's response to him, you know. He's not creating that response. Just gently by his activity, people are like, "Oh no, it's just blown apart." I just love that gentle way that he does it. And it's almost people are asking and answering their own questions in kind of responding to the way he does it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna Kettle: It's kind of, it's kind of, um, quite often see Jesus do this in scripture though, don't you, where it's kind of gentle and he just says something that cuts through to the bone. Yeah, yeah, that's the truth and the heart of the matter for everyone listening. So I was thinking when you were talking, you know, about, about the woman where he's like, you know, they're all about the woman who's caught adultery. Yeah, like everyone was wanting to like throw stones at her, you know, and he's like, whoever hasn't sinned, throw the first stone. And, you know, he sort of draws that line. And it's a similar moment, but it's different situation. And I think Jesus so often does that where he just like, like you say, just blows open the whole issue and exposes the heart condition of everybody who's listening, everyone in the room. And it's like, oh no, we've all got stuff to learn here. And it Yeah, different people will have different responses depending on where their heart is. But yeah, Jesus, just like you say, it's kind of like this gentle prompt, but then it's this like huge grenade that blows open the issue and you're like, oh yeah, my heart's wrong as well.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Will Sopwith: And I think at heart we probably all— and, and you hear this from people who are like kind of interested in Jesus but maybe think, oh, I need to get to a particular point before following Jesus. I think we all like to be told what to do a little bit. People are kind of looking for those, those guardrails in any kind of religion or behavior or whatever. And Jesus doesn't do much of that. He does— he just— he's this situation where everyone just goes away scratching their head and going, oh. And it, I mean, it really lands and really kind of causes that, that reflection and that, that questioning of self.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Will Sopwith: Um, you know, you see it all the time and she's telling parables. It's like those, those stories that, that force you to kind of reflect and try and work it out what he's getting at. Um, and I think that's, that's still the way Jesus often responds to us now. It's like, you know, what do you think is the reason then?

Anna Kettle: Because you say like Jesus doesn't really do a lot of that kind of like boundary setting and his ABCDE, you need to follow these prescriptive rules in order to be right with me. Like, there aren't a lot of those kind of rules in Christianity, and yet a lot of people do come to Christianity, don't they, thinking there's a huge list of rules I have to follow.

Will Sopwith: And as Laura said, I have to get my life right and do certain things in order to be okay with the very reason the Pharisees were struggling so much with Jesus here is because they, they kind of had that, that revelation of God through, through the law, through the what we call the Old Testament, through that, those kind of stories of God's response to his people. And they were like, well, yeah, it's all a little bit open to interpretation. Let's think about how to apply this. And so out came this kind of, you know, I don't know, 671 additional laws in Judaism, something like that, um, about how to live. And that was an attempt to interpret what they felt God was saying. And I think the church has done exactly the same. It's like, okay, here's the teaching of Jesus, how do we interpret that? How do we, how do we make that into something that, that anyone can, can follow without necessarily needing to wrestle with scriptures for themselves? And I think the motive is good because it's like wanting to, to give people a framework around which to believe Jesus. But the problem is you lose Jesus in that because it all becomes about the law. So it's, it's, it's not surprising that people think, oh, there's this whole kind of moral code that I need to sign up to and go, well, I can't, I can't really do that one, so, oh, Jesus isn't for me. But actually, when you read the Gospels and you think about it, it's like this, yeah, there's not very much of that. So I think, I think it's our, our human, um, response, our kind of, um we're sort of triggered to like, okay, must put a kind of a framework, a boundary, a law around this, because that's kind of our nature. And Jesus time and again says no, no, that is not what this is about.

Anna Kettle: Yeah. And it's like back to front though, isn't it? So like, you're right, we— people come at it like, oh, I think there's all these things I need to do in order to be right with God. But I think the point is you can't be right with God unless you have Jesus.

Matt Edmundson: Like, yeah.

Anna Kettle: It's like Matt made the point before, I think, really well, that like it's the sick, not the well, that need Jesus. And actually we're all sick. They— yeah, the point is nobody can do this Christianity thing. No one can be right with God apart from Jesus. And so we all need Jesus. And so it's like that. Yeah, it's not— the heart of it isn't wrong, but actually it's pointless to start with a list of rules because nobody can follow the rules. Like got to have a relationship with Jesus. That was— that's what frees you, that's what changes your heart, and that— that's what enables you really to pray, right?

Matt Edmundson: You think about when you and Andy got married, right? The vows, you probably said them in like 30 seconds, right? But the next, you know, God willing, 50, 60 years of marriage is outworking those vows. Yeah, right. Now what you didn't do At least, you know, I don't, I don't think you did this on your wedding day. Andy's not talked to me about it. I don't know where this is going, but what you didn't do is go, right, those vows, let me explain to you what they mean. In this scenario, you do this, and in this scenario, you do that. And it's like, you, you know, and I think a lot of the problems in marriage come down to a lack of communication and communication around expectations. Right? So, 'til death do us part' has different meanings in different people's heads, right? And outworking that— what does it mean to be faithful? Well, we unpack these things, don't we, in church? And we talk about what to be faithful in this, and to be— and we, we unpack these things. But fundamentally, your vows can be said in 30 seconds.

Will Sopwith: Yeah, right.

Matt Edmundson: If you think about the Constitution of the United States, the document we all think about and talk about, it's on a page.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, right.

Matt Edmundson: If you think about the laws governing how to use a ladder on a job site, it's this thick. Yeah, right. It's ridiculous in so many ways. And it's just the way we are as society. And I think, but like you say, as people, we crave it. So going back to the pre-marriage, what's the one question everybody who's engaged asks? How far can I go? Right? We have this, we have this principle. But what does that mean? Can I do this? Can I do— and 25,000 questions like, can I And you just— and you get wrapped up in the, what does this mean?

Will Sopwith: And the prenup as well. It's like, yeah, it's a classic case in point of like, you know, this vow and this intention and this heart is not enough. Let's, let's make sure we've got the detail covered in case we get to that point of needing to argue it out. Um, and yeah, no, I think that's a great analogy, that, that we come to Jesus quite simply and the rest of your walk with Jesus is working it out, really.

Matt Edmundson: That's all it is. You just— you're work— walking out the covenant that you have made with God. Sometimes you're going to get it right, sometimes you're going to get it wrong. And I don't think it's so much about the failure as it is about our heart, right? I think God can handle my failure much more than he can handle my disobedience, right? And so it's that desire to go, I don't think I'm always going to get this right, but I'm gonna try. Yeah, right. And I think, like, I'm gonna pick on Andy a little bit because he's not here, um, but like, Andy will be a great husband, but is he the perfect husband? Well, there's going to be one or two things, I'm sure. Don't tell me, don't tell me. Um, but it's, it's not about that, right? It's about working this out and outworking it together and, and And the relationship survives those things and gets stronger for it when there's that honesty and authenticity, right? Yeah, exactly the same here.

Anna Kettle: And, and you're right, and life throws up different hurdles and different seasons, doesn't it, and different challenges. And then you work out, oh, what does it mean to be married in this season? Now we've got a tiny baby or a grumpy teenager, or when, you know, whatever is going on, or somebody's sick with cancer, or Like, there's different seasons, aren't there? Different challenges that life throws up. And you're absolutely right. And that, that's— it's the same with relationship with God. Like, different seasons of life will throw up different challenges. So you're like, what does it mean to follow God and to love him with all my heart?

Will Sopwith: Exactly.

Anna Kettle: This season, in this scenario, when this is happening. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Edmundson: But it's like, the question when you're engaged is not how far can I go, right? What can I get away with? That's entirely the wrong question. It's the question is, how can I carry out this engagement in a way that's honoring to you as my future spouse and honoring to God? Entirely different question, right? And I think that that's what we do here. It's like, I don't, I don't fully get it, I don't fully understand it, I don't have all the answers, but there's going to be this sort of outwalking and walk with it, which is great. Um, yeah, Ellis said here in the comments, in regard to rules, I've often been caught out in thinking if I don't do X, X, Y, and Z, or Z for American cousins, uh, then I'm in the wrong. But even though something feels that way, it doesn't mean it's true. Any thoughts on that?

Will Sopwith: I don't know whether I fully, fully get what you're saying there, Alicia, but I think there's— we can come with our— again, it's a little bit about our expectations of God, actually, and our expectations of Jesus. And we can come with all sorts of things that we think if we are to be a follower of Christ, this must be real, and we forget to ask God, and we forget to kind of look at scripture and say, actually, I want to, I want to test that out. I think the Holy Spirit does work in us, and I think we see that in Matthew here, in Levi. Yeah, that there is that what's called a conviction of what's not right. I think Levi knew that his life wasn't glorifying God, and he didn't really want to be cheating his own people of the taxes and all the rest.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Will Sopwith: So there was that kind of, you know, that— don't get us wrong, that there is a change when you meet with Jesus. He deeply challenges the things you do. So sometimes that's from, from, from God. But if it's a kind of a, a prerequisite of knowing Jesus, that's very often our own Yeah, thought and our own kind of this religious— yeah, that's right— becoming, and he's justifying himself.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Will Sopwith: Um, so therefore this, this must be true. Um, so yeah, I think it can be both, but again, it's a little bit the heart, the motivation as to—

Matt Edmundson: it's all about whether I change questions. Yeah, because it's like, if I, if I don't do X, Y, and Z, then I'm going to struggle with my faith. And I don't think it's about that, but if you have a strong faith, you will want to do X, Y, and Z. Yeah.

Will Sopwith: Right?

Matt Edmundson: Because you— your heart is to live a life that is pleasing to God.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, right.

Matt Edmundson: That's— you read the New Testament, uses that phrase so many times, to live a life that is pleasing to him. You can't do that and flagrantly disregard, you know, all the things that the Holy Spirit would convict you about. You just can't do it.

Will Sopwith: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Um, just like I have to live within the confounds of the covenant that I've made to Sharon I, in the same way, I have to live that way in my relationship with God. It's not a burden, it's actually quite freeing in many ways.

Will Sopwith: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Um, but the heart is that, and this is where I think Jesus struggled with the Pharisees, because their heart was like, we've got to do these laws exactly like this. And in some respects, what that meant was we could get away with this over here, right? And it's not about what you can get away with. Um, and it's not about what you have to do. It's this sort of balance of grace and faith that you kind of—

Will Sopwith: the other thing I was really struck with in this though was, was that, that motivation, Jesus's motivation of compassion. We see it all, all through the stories of Jesus in the Gospels. Um, and that motivation is absolutely key as well, that he, he had this, this love. And you know, as I was thinking about Who am I in this story? I, I'm, I'm this incredibly awkward sort of disciple sat down with him at this table that everything in me is going, I shouldn't be here. This is like, this is trashing my reputation. I am that person. I'm like deeply challenged by where Jesus might, yeah, lead me to be.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Will Sopwith: Because of my upbringing and, and I don't know, all the rest, and it's kind of moral code I've sort of written over my life and stuff. Um, and, and, you know, very often we're not moved by compassion, and that's, that's the problem. But Jesus really, really is. He, he really has a heart that, that he calls us to engage with as we grow as Christians.

Matt Edmundson: Alicia says here, because— and this is an interesting one, I think, because this, this brings around to an interesting point— because my father was so ill during my teens, I remember craving some influence over the situation. How many of us have been in this situation where we're like, God, we need you to do something, right? And so then you fall into a trap of, I have to act a certain way, I have to make a Christian person, right? So I have to pray more, read my Bible more, I can't swear, I can't, you know, whatever, whatever is on your list of things that in your head makes you think like you're the, you know, a better Christian.

Anna Kettle: Try and get some extra brownie points.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've done that totally. So what she says is she fell into this trap in the hopes that God would show mercy.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: All that ended up doing though was making me feel afraid of and distant from God, and then I had to work my way back to the innocent closeness I'd felt in my childhood.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, that's really powerful.

Will Sopwith: Alicia, that's great.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, yeah, I, I totally relate to that. And I, I think, yeah, thank you for sharing it, um, Alicia, because it's, yeah, I think it's probably something we can all relate to at times. But I definitely know you know, when I've been through difficult seasons, I've been really praying for God to break through and do something in my life that I almost feel like I overperform. Like, I'm going to show God how great and faithful and like totally awesome a Christian I am so that he'll be on side and he'll be more inclined to do what I'm praying for. Yeah, like I've done that on little things. I've also done it on really big things, like, you know, when we're going through like miscarriages and I'm really good at a healthy pregnancy.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: I just show God how okay I am with everything.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah.

Anna Kettle: I just prove myself to be so faithful, then surely, yeah, God will like do what I'm praying for.

Will Sopwith: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: But obviously that's not how life works, and that's not necessarily how, you know, I don't think that's how it's keeping back for us.

Will Sopwith: It's a reflection of our own culture.

Anna Kettle: Yeah. And we can get into these wrong ways of patterns of thinking so easily though, can't we? Like we have to somehow earn it because we kind of project our thinking onto God.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, we do.

Anna Kettle: And God doesn't work like that and he doesn't think of us like that. But yeah, we think of one another in that kind of tricky way.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, we do.

Anna Kettle: It's hard not to project that on God.

Will Sopwith: This was clearly profound because I remember it as a 7-year-old saying to my mum one day, I'm going to be really good all day. That's that kind of motivation. And my mum saying to me, oh, we just love you as you are. And then later on, clearly I wasn't being good and I was told off by my mum. It's like, oh, you just said you loved me how I was. That was my retort back to her. I'm just following your advice. But I've really remembered that, that sort of love of a parent saying, do you know, it's not about that. That's not what we're looking for. We're not looking for you performing. I just love your heart.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Will Sopwith: Who you are.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: That's so powerful. Like, when you're quite a performance-centered person— yeah, like, I definitely am. I like, like to achieve. I like to tick things off my to-do list. I like to be a high achiever, like, in whatever I'm doing. And I, I remember my mum and dad did a really cool thing when I, I was a teenager, actually. I think it was either my GCSEs or A-levels, I can't remember which. But they said, oh, it was like just before we got our exam results, and they said, we're gonna go out for a family meal, we're going to take you out to celebrate tonight, like 2 days before the exam results came. So like, they were like, we don't want to celebrate if you got straight A's or if you didn't. Yeah, you want to celebrate you now because you worked hard and you gave it 10 out of 10. Yeah. And so we want to celebrate the effort and the achievement now, not when you've got the results, because that, that's not what defines you.

Will Sopwith: That's great.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, I totally wish I'd done that.

Anna Kettle: It's like, yeah, it's always stuck with me though, because it's like, yeah, you could have told me this 10 years ago.

Matt Edmundson: I could have used that. Sorry, kids. I told my kids that they couldn't come home if they didn't win on sports day. Very different style of upbringing, I feel.

Anna Kettle: Enough said about that one.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Let's move on. Sorry, kids.

Anna Kettle: Yeah. What else have we got coming through on the comments? Anything else, Matt?

Matt Edmundson: Oh, let me put my glasses on. I can't see the comments without my glasses. We've got Jenny in the comments. Groovy Beetle Car. Now, I think you guys, I don't know if you were around when Jenny first started joining the live streams. But she's been away for a little while, doing other church stuff. But Jenny's back on livestream. Jenny, it's great to see you. Always like Jenny. Jenny had such great stories. Um, she said that I definitely thought that Christianity meant rules. And how many people hold that belief, right? Yeah, yeah, Christians and non-Christians.

Will Sopwith: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Uh, Christianity is a list of things that I cannot do. Here's the thing though, right? There are definitely things you shouldn't do as a Christian, okay? But There are definitely things you shouldn't do as not a Christian, right? It's not like— it's not like come to Jesus and suddenly your life is, is inhibited in ways that it shouldn't be. It's like, I don't know, you are— I, I always have this belief that, um, you are always bound to something, right? And a free man gets to choose what binds him. Okay, so I think the thing I've realized about my Christian walk is I get to choose what binds me. You know, Paul, when he writes the letters in the New Testament— Paul's one of these guys that sort of has quite a dramatic conversion, but he often writes his letters by calling himself a servant or a bondservant of Christ. Yeah, like, I'm bound to him, you know. It's really interesting language, like, I'm choosing to bind myself to him, like I choose to bind myself to my wife. I choose to bind myself to Christ, and I have that choice. If I don't make that choice, it's probably because I don't know that I have the choice to make, if that makes sense. But you fundamentally, whether you've made that choice or not, you're bound by something, right? The Bible would call it sin, um, in many ways. But it's one of those things where I know so many people who are bound by, say, um, addiction approval— approval addiction, rather— or they're bound by, um, how well they're doing at work. They're bound by their salary. That's their whole measure of worth, is their annual income statement, right? And you— they would say, well, it doesn't bind me. Well, clearly it does, because it just drives your whole life.

Anna Kettle: You're just—

Matt Edmundson: you're not saying— you're not being honest with yourself, right? Um, so I think this idea that Christianity means rules is— I get that it's partially true, because to say it isn't is a false statement, because there are definitely things in scripture where it says do not do.

Will Sopwith: Yeah, but we all—

Anna Kettle: we all live with rules, right? Yeah, like nobody lives a rule-free life. Like, I can't think of any examples. Like, we all create our own rules and, you know, priorities and the things that, yeah, we give ourselves to.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah.

Anna Kettle: So we're all about— you're right, we're all bound by something. It's just, it's the what, isn't it? And if it's—

Matt Edmundson: choose your what, what binds you, right? It's, it's—

Anna Kettle: nobody's, nobody's free of everything, are they?

Matt Edmundson: No, no, not at all. You get to choose what binds you, and that's That's actually quite a powerful revelation, I think, when you, when you get your head around it. Um, and that's, I think, the freedom that Christ brings us. And so I choose to be bound to this covenant. Like, when, when I got married, it was a choice. It's not like Sharon's dad was there with a gun at my head going, you know, make the vows, dude. So I wanted to be there, man. I wanted to make those vows. I still want to make those vows. I still want to live out those. This is not a problem to me. I have not lost a single thing by being faithful to my wife. Yeah, some people might think, oh, I couldn't do that. I'm like, dude, trust me, I have gained so much more than what I— you might perceive I've lost, right? And I think the same is true with Christianity. Yeah, I really do.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Edmundson: So go on.

Will Sopwith: So one— well, one of those final questions was, okay, so what, what's the lane you're keeping? And like, you know, if you're binding yourself to Christ, it means stepping out. It means seeking that transformation in places that you might not feel so comfortable. And I think that's another challenge to us, to any of you that are watching that's like, oh yeah, I've done that, you know, I'm, I'm following Christ, I know his grace. It's like, okay, well, well, what's, what's Jesus modeling to you in this, uh, in this scripture in terms of that, that challenge of Yeah, reaching out that, that offer, that offer of life, uh, that he brought to Levi and all his friends in this party.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, and I, I really like what you had to say, Will, about, um, just the compassion of Jesus. Like, he had so much compassion for people, didn't he? And I, I feel like that's something, you know, Christianity, we talk a lot about it being like a journey, something that we're always growing in. We're always— I mean, we're always growing as people if we're doing it right, if we're doing this life thing right, we're always learning and growing and developing, aren't we?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: And, um, yeah, I just feel like one of the areas that I'm constantly challenged as a Christian is, is that exactly that. It's, it's having compassion for people, people that are different to me, people think differently to me, people that are maybe a bit annoying and I wouldn't choose to hang out with, you know, outside of church or side of work, or, you know, those people that get under your skin, or yeah, just like having more compassion for people that are different to me and think different and we hold different views even. And yeah, we don't live in an especially compassionate age, do we? It strikes me like we're very polarized as a culture right now.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, we are.

Anna Kettle: You're all this, so you're all that. You talk about the right and left, you know, the religious right and left as well.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, Jesus.

Anna Kettle: But in so many areas of life, we're so polarised, like, I'm this kind of person or I'm that kind of person.

Will Sopwith: And do you think that whole reputational thing, I mean, you know, the school cafeteria is a very poor example. That's the only one I could think of. But do you think that same reputational risk of association, I mean, maybe it's much more online and who you're following, who you're commenting on or whatever, which I know politically, you know, dig through some aspiring politicians pass and it's like, oh, you used to follow this guy, and it's like, yeah, yeah. But do you think that kind of whole reputational thing exists now? Is it, is it less? What, what's the—

Anna Kettle: so, but if— I guess so, but I feel for me, like, uh, and I get what you're saying about the, you know, school canteen and everything, but I feel for me, like, as I get older, it's less about that. Like, I don't really care what most people think about me most of the time. I guess for me it's more of a heart thing. It's like, do I want to give this person time? Do I want to love them? Do I want to take the time and the effort that it's going to cost? It's costly, isn't it, to love someone who's not easy to love or doesn't look the same as you or think the same as you. It's harder. It's easy to be friends. Like most of us are friends with people that are a bit like us and into the same things.

Will Sopwith: Well, there's implications, isn't there? You love somebody, there's implications that are going to be potentially very inconvenient in your life.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, yeah.

Will Sopwith: Um, of really loving somebody and really kind of putting yourself out for people.

Anna Kettle: But I feel like sometimes it's that thing of like when you spend time with Jesus, it, it's like he exposes the kind of— they say he exposes the heart, and it's like, gee. But the thing that I love about what you see about Jesus in the gospels is he kind of— the way he looks at people, he kind of sees beneath the surface.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: And I think as people, we don't always do that. We don't understand. We, you know, people don't wear everything on the surface anyway, do they? You don't meet someone and you see what they look like on the surface and you make instant judgments about people because we all do that. It's just how our brains work. You take in the information about what they're saying, what you're seeing. But that's only the surface level. And actually, there's a whole load of life experiences, good and bad, that have shaped who someone is and how they think and what they feel. And Jesus— like, the thing I see about Jesus is he's able to look past the surface and he sees right to the heart of a person. And he's like, he's got compassion because he knows who they really are and he loves them, like, at their core. And I think so often we don't take the time to really get to know someone. And I think that, yeah, it's a challenge. It's like, are you just going to look at someone and judge them in the first 2 minutes based on your initial perception?

Will Sopwith: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: Or are you really going to take the time to sit with someone, to listen to their story, to hear where they're coming from, to understand what shaped them? Maybe even when they've got awful views that you disagree with. Yeah. You know, in some ways, you know, people can be quite hateful, can't they? Especially online. But it's like, what is behind that and what has shaped that person? And it's just trying to suspend judgment and Yeah, and I, I don't find that easy. I'm not, I'm not saying I do, but I feel like Jesus really challenges me to get better at listening.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: And kind of trying to see to the heart of someone and why they are the way they are, rather than just like, yeah, well, they're not very nice, or they're not—

Matt Edmundson: but they are fundamentally a child of God. Yeah, right. And they're made in the image of God. And this, like, this idea of getting down to the story is so powerful because you can I've— having been in the room with people and had all kinds of conversations about all kinds of topics, um, you can take anything that's a hot potato, right? Any single topic that's a hot potato. So let's take abortion, right? You take that as a topic. I'm going to have a viewpoint on this. You may have a different one.

Anna Kettle: Yep.

Matt Edmundson: Um, but we need to have the ability to have a conversation around those viewpoints, right? So that's That's your surface level. So it's like, well, what do you believe? So then we get into what you believe, but the conversation doesn't happen until I actually get down to what I call level 3, which is where I go, so what's the story? Yeah, right. Because more often than not, there is a story which goes alongside that belief.

Anna Kettle: It's the why do you believe what you believe or shape that. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: And actually by me disregarding your beliefs, I'm disregarding your story. And that is so powerful.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, right.

Matt Edmundson: And what Jesus does is he gets into the story. He doesn't excuse it. This is an interesting thing, you know. You talked about the woman who was caught in adultery. Doesn't excuse the behavior, but he gets to the story, right? And I think we have to get past political beliefs, we have to get past religious beliefs, we have to get past moral ideologies, because the more we perceive something like abortion as a moral issue the less we're willing to talk to people about it. Do you see what I mean? It's like, no, no, this is black and white, this is moral. And so if you hold a contrary opinion, I start to see you as the enemy rather than seeing you through the eyes of Jesus, which is there's a story here. Now, I don't have to believe what you believe because I have a moral conviction, but I have an obligation in many ways to try and understand your story. Um, and I think it's such a powerful idea.

Will Sopwith: Yeah, yeah. No, completely.

Anna Kettle: And also, we haven't all walked in the same shoes, have we? Like, you know, you may not have— like, you might look at sinner, whatever the issue is, and think, well, I would never do that. But you don't know what someone's lived through that has taken them to that place. Like, yeah, so it is that thing of trying to hear that story. Absolutely. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: So, uh, just to finish off, Alicia's put in the comments, thinking about the concept of the yoke of Jesus. A yoke is still a bind. So a yoke is something that you would put on cattle. Have I got this right? Yeah, you would put this on cattle and the cattle would— that would be what pulls the plow along as they plow the field, right? So, um, and Jesus said, my yoke is easy and my burden is light. He said, take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls. My yoke is easy, my burden is light. Thanks, Alicia, for putting that scripture in the comments. Matthew 11:28, verses, uh, to verse 30. Um, so yes, we, we choose to wear this yoke, but Jesus says, my yoke is easy and my burden is light. It doesn't always feel that way, Jesus, I'm not gonna lie, but I sure appreciate you saying it. Um, uh, Alicia said here, Anna, that reminds me of the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. I think that's one of the simplest ones understand, but it can be one of the most difficult to put into place.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, I know, because Jesus actually said, didn't he, um, I guess in the Gospel of Mark, he said, um, it's like some of the religious leaders were saying, what's the most important rule? Like, what's the most important one? Tell us, tell us what we have to do. And, and Jesus says, love the Lord your God with all your heart.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: And love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. And like, all of the, all of the, all of it is just summed up in those two points. Yeah, so I was saying, if you're doing that, then you're doing the whole thing.

Will Sopwith: Yeah, but yeah, doing that as a lifetime.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Anna Kettle: Loving your neighbor, but even the loving God bit is, you know, given the wrong day, it's hard. But yeah, all of the law is summed up in that.

Matt Edmundson: One thing they said to us at Bible school which has always stood with me, which I really enjoyed, was the Bible commands you to love everybody. It does not command you to like everybody. Yeah. And I thought that was actually quite freeing.

Anna Kettle: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: In so many ways, it answered so many questions in my head. So, that was for free, by the way.

Will Sopwith: Share that one for free.

Matt Edmundson: Anyway, it's probably time to move on, isn't it, Miss Anna? So— Well, you're leading. It's your choice.

Anna Kettle: I am leading. I'm trying to, but someone won't be quiet. All these people that are sent to test us, they will Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Dan, stop it, will you? Just behave. I'll have a word with him later.

Anna Kettle: Yes, let's wrap up because, yeah, time's ticking along. But, Matt, can you tell us what we've got on next week? Because I don't actually know because you didn't tell me before we went on air.

Matt Edmundson: Pete Farrington next week.

Anna Kettle: Okay.

Matt Edmundson: So, yeah, we've got Pete Farrington chatting away to us. I'll tell you now what he's talking about. Hang on. He is talking about when your past follows you.

Anna Kettle: When your past follows you.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, so Jesus Revolution and how he deals with your past. Sharon and I will be hosting. Zoe's back. She'll be on tech.

Anna Kettle: Brilliant.

Matt Edmundson: So how was dance? I didn't actually follow you on there. Were you doing the picture thing okay tonight?

Will Sopwith: Yeah. Our apprentice in the corner there.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah.

Anna Kettle: It's definitely, um, Yeah, he's definitely got better.

Matt Edmundson: Have you been watching? Because I can't see the screen.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, he's actually on the right person when we're talking most of the time. So that sounds good. Well done tonight, Dan. Gold star.

Will Sopwith: Yeah, well done, Dan. Gold star.

Matt Edmundson: You've passed. Well done.

Anna Kettle: That sounds great for next week. And then, yeah, I'm looking forward to that. Will, have you got any final thoughts on this week before we head to the shop?

Will Sopwith: No, no. Just to say about the live lounge following.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Will Sopwith: I'm sure you were going to cover that. But yeah, be challenged. Don't allow those expectations to get in your way. In the way of you following Jesus, um, allow him to challenge them, and it's an adventure.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it really is.

Anna Kettle: Any final thoughts from you, Matt?

Matt Edmundson: Um, just that, you know, I, I, I love this scripture, you know, my yoke is easy and my burden is light. I think following Christ requires something of us, and but what he requires of us is something that is light and more freeing than you could ever possibly think or imagine. And I think if it's not, if it's become burdensome, my experience is 9 times out of 10, that's a mismatch in my thinking, right? It's not, it's not anything other than I just need to course correct, uh, with the help of the Holy Spirit. So, um, but yes, I, I love those scriptures. So do go, uh, think about those and read about those.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, fantastic. Okay, that's everything from us tonight. But yeah, as Will just said, come and join us in the live lounge in a minute if you want to continue this conversation. We'll be hanging out there. It's just a chance to come and say hello, carry on this conversation. Yeah, and the link should be coming up in the comments. But yeah, come and say hi to us and yeah, let's continue this conversation if you've got any more thoughts or questions.

Will Sopwith: Indeed.

Anna Kettle: But otherwise, we will see you this time next week. See you soon.