Theoretical physicist Josh Edmundson explores whether science and faith must be in conflict, sharing his journey from young Earth creationism to a more nuanced view that embraces both scientific discovery and biblical faith. Rather than seeing Genesis as a scientific textbook, he argues it addresses deeper questions about identity, purpose, and our relationship with God. Through university studies and ministry experience, Josh discovered that intellectual honesty doesn't threaten genuine faith - it deepens it, showing that wrestling with questions is exactly what both good science and mature faith require.
01Talk notes
Ever felt like you had to choose between your brain and your faith? Like believing in God meant abandoning everything you learned in science class, or that studying physics automatically disqualifies you from church?
Josh Edmundson, fresh from completing his Masters in theoretical physics at St Andrews, knows that tension well. He's wrestled with questions about Genesis, evolution, and whether the scientific method leaves any room for the divine. What he discovered might surprise you - the supposed battle between science and faith isn't nearly as clear-cut as either side wants you to believe.
02The Real Issue
Before we can even discuss whether science and faith conflict, we need to define what we're actually talking about. Josh discovered this during his studies - much of the heated debate comes from people arguing past each other because they're using completely different definitions.
Science, as Josh defines it, is "the systematic experimental and rational study of the natural world" - building mathematical models to understand how things work and testing them through trial and error. Faith, drawing from Hebrews 11:1, is "confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see" - essentially, life-altering trust that God is who he says he is.
Put like that, they seem to address completely different questions. Science asks, "How does this work?" while faith asks, "Who is behind it all?" The real problem emerges when we try to make one answer the other's questions.
The flashpoint usually comes with Genesis. Modern science suggests the universe is 13.8 billion years old, with life evolving over 3.8 billion years. Genesis describes creation happening in six days, with humanity formed almost immediately. As Josh puts it, the scale difference is "literally like comparing the radius of a golf ball to the radius of the Sun."
03You're Already Wrestling
Josh's journey started as a teenager when he was a "staunch young Earth creationist" - convinced that Genesis was a literal, scene-by-scene account of creation. His motivation wasn't really scientific; it was fear. "If I dismissed the Genesis creation account as a myth, where would I stop?" he wondered. "Would the whole book consequently lose its value?"
That fear drove him to defend a literal six-day creation, not because the evidence was compelling, but because he was terrified of what questions might lead to. Sound familiar?
Everything changed when he encountered John Lennox's book "Seven Days That Divide the World." For the first time, Josh found a well-presented alternative that tried to remain biblically faithful whilst honestly engaging with scientific evidence. Lennox suggested that Genesis could be read as describing an extended creation process, with potentially millions of years between each "day."
Josh realised something crucial: "Maybe I could ask questions about how we interpret the creation narrative without having to throw my faith down the drain."
04God's Framework for Questions
Here's what Josh discovered through his physics studies: science isn't about uncovering fundamental truths so much as building "Lego block attempts to model something far greater and far more complex than we could ever hope to truly understand."
At the same time, his faith was deepening through formal theology, profound conversations, and practical ministry experience. He began hearing God more actively, seeing prayers answered, and experiencing the reality of faith in ways that went far beyond intellectual arguments.
This led him to what he calls a "non-concordist view" of Genesis - the idea that the creation narrative is better understood through authorial intent and historical context than scientific scrutiny. He no longer thinks the narrative corresponds to a set of historical events, "but I also think it really wouldn't matter if they did."
Why? Because Genesis concerns itself with far bigger questions than stellar formation or universal age. It tells us who God is, who we are in light of him, and how he relates to us. As his friend and poet Rubyan puts it: "if we down here need anything it's to be told we're smaller than we think but not alone."
Genesis teaches that God created not because he wanted servants but because he delighted in creating and in us. It teaches that creation is fundamentally good, that we're crafted in God's image with his essence within us, and that despite our fallenness, God is working to bring about good once more.
05Make It Real
Josh's perspective transforms how we approach both science and faith:
In the laboratory or lecture hall: Scientific discovery becomes an act of worship, exploring the intricacies of what God has made. The complexity and beauty revealed through research can fuel rather than threaten faith. As Will Edmundson noted in the conversation, studying molecular biology filled him with "awesome wonder in the created order" and "thrilled at the complexity."
When reading Scripture, we can bring our full intellect to the text without fear. Jesus used parables specifically to make people wrestle with deeper truths, and even his disciples needed explanations. Wrestling with difficult passages isn't a sign of weak faith - it's exactly what the text is designed to provoke.
In conversations with sceptics: We don't need to defend God or prove faith through scientific arguments. As Josh puts it, "you don't need to worry that scripture will break if you begin to wrestle with it." Humility about what we don't know can be more powerful than dogmatic certainty about what we think we do.
When doubts arise: Questions become opportunities for deeper understanding rather than threats to faith. Josh's scientific training didn't weaken his belief - it refined and strengthened it by showing him that reality is far more complex and mysterious than any simple model can capture.
06Conversation Street
During the Q&A, several crucial insights emerged from the community discussion:
"Have you being a scientist caused you to struggle with your faith?"
Will Edmundson shared that his scientific background actually strengthened his faith: "My degree and particularly learning about the molecular level of creation just absolutely made me thrilled at the complexity... it just keeps throwing up complexity and questions and that fascinates me."
"You cannot prove the existence of God ever so therefore religion should not be a thing."
The discussion highlighted how this represents an incredibly narrow view of reality. As Will pointed out, "to depend upon empirical measurement as your yardstick of if I can't see it, touch it, measure it, repeat it... it doesn't exist, it's not real" ignores vast areas of human experience. You can't empirically prove love either, but that doesn't make it less real.
"Does changing views suggest religious beliefs are more about personal interpretation than objective truth?"
This led to a profound reflection on the nature of faith itself. As Will explained, "If faith makes absolute sense to you at the age of 18 and you've got it all stitched up, I'd suggest that you're wrong and you're kind of missing an awful lot." Faith involves "wrestling with things that are not clear and not necessarily understood" - if everything was tick-box clear, "it wouldn't be faith."
07What Changed
Josh's journey illustrates something powerful: intellectual honesty doesn't threaten genuine faith - it deepens it. His physics training didn't make him less Christian; it made him a more thoughtful one. His willingness to question young Earth creationism didn't lead to abandoning Scripture; it led to a richer understanding of what Genesis is actually trying to communicate.
The real transformation wasn't in his scientific knowledge or theological positions - it was in his approach to truth itself. Rather than seeing faith and reason as opponents, he learned to bring "everything you've got" to following Christ, including intellect, curiosity, and questions.
08Next Steps
If you're considering faith but worried you'd have to "surrender your mind at the door," Josh's invitation is simple: "bring your intellect, bring your curiosity, and bring your questions. The Lord can take it."
If you're a believer who feels your faith depends on a particular scientific interpretation of Genesis, consider this encouragement: you can ask questions of Scripture without breaking it. Wrestling with difficult passages is not only okay - it's exactly what they're designed to provoke.
Here are practical ways to explore this further:
Read broadly: Engage with both scientific literature and theological scholarship. Books like John Lennox's "Seven Days That Divide the World" offer thoughtful perspectives that respect both domains.
Ask questions freely: Whether in church, university, or casual conversation, don't be afraid to voice uncertainties. Good faith can handle honest questions.
Embrace complexity: Resist the urge to oversimplify either scientific findings or biblical texts. Reality is more nuanced than any simple model can capture.
Practice humility: Recognise that both scientific knowledge and theological understanding are ongoing journeys, not destinations we've already reached.
Focus on what matters most: Whether Genesis describes literal days or vast epochs, the central message remains unchanged - we are loved, created with purpose, and not alone in the universe.
09The Bigger Picture
Perhaps the most liberating insight from Josh's journey is this: the supposed war between science and faith often says more about our need for control than about reality itself. We want everything neatly categorised, all questions answered, all mysteries solved. But both good science and mature faith require us to live comfortably with complexity and unknowing.
As Josh discovered, you don't need to choose between your brain and your belief. The God who crafted the laws of physics and the complexities of molecular biology is the same God who inspired the writers of Genesis. Both are invitations to wonder, to worship, and to recognise that we are indeed "smaller than we think but not alone."
The question isn't whether science and faith can tell the same story - it's whether we're willing to listen to both with the humility and curiosity they deserve.
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(240) Can Science And Faith Tell The Same Story? (Genesis Part 4) - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjUTXkZvidc
Transcript: (00:00) your first will that happened last time hello I'm all prepared for Matt to say welcome to crowd church and it's me hello my name's will welcome to crowd Church yeah and I'm Matt it's good to be here with you uh is that how I talk normally welcome that's absolutely how you talk Matt yeah the big boom in welcome to crowd it's great that you're here uh we are in fact online I can see we're online now which is great so uh do say hello in the comments be great to hear from you let us know where you are watching from (00:29) because tonight we are talking about the origin story of all origin Stories the very beginning of the world I did Stitch you up a little bit there yeah absolutely you always do you always do um talking of orange origin stories orange stories no it is orange it is Orange um I I finally got around to making marmalade which is something I do every year and this weekend has been my marmalade weekend and did you know the origin story of marmalade uh Paddington Bear no no absolutely not apparently someone have to correct me on on online now but apparently there was a (01:10) there was a merchant in Dundee okay and and he thought he had got an absolute bargain and he had this shipload of oranges and he got them for a real bargain price and he brought them back and they were like several oranges which if you know anything about several oranges you cannot eat they are so bitter and his wife was absolutely beside herself like you wasted all our money what am I going to do with all the these oranges and so she played around with load of sugar and boiling and marmalade was born and um if you don't like marmalade I'm I'm sorry but it's (01:39) quite exciting for me because I make marmalade this time of year it's the only time you can get several oranges and it lasts me all year okay so there we go I didn't know you were going to talk about Mary no uh was there a point to the talk about no no it's just origin story I was thinking of or other or Origins Orin anyway moving on uh We've practiced that one obviously in rehearsals um so yeah well well if you like marmalade you're welcome if you don't you're still welcome uh it's good to see you make sure like say you say how's it in the comments uh be great to have you tonight we have uh (02:14) exclusively Josh Edmonson uh speaking about science and Faith so we're gonna get into this whole topic about science and Faith specifically Josh is going to be talking about the Book of Genesis oh yes he's going to be talking about six day creation and all of that we're going to be getting into all that which is great now the reason I asked Josh to do this talk apart from the fact you know proud dad he is actually my son Josh is just graduated from St Andrews with a masters in theoretical physics super (02:44) super intelligent I theoretical physics what is that about I I just I think you just make couldn't even begin couldn't even begin yeah all credit made physics well done Josh well done well done so um Josh's just he's got a he's got his Masters in theoretical physics uh his girlfriend Abby is doing a PhD in I want to say astrophysics I'm just looking at Sharon she's nodding at me so those two are blinding conversations as you would expect that a high powerered couple yeah very much so and so I thought it'd be great to get Josh because whilst he was (03:15) at University his scientific understanding obviously massively exploded but also his faith um got stronger as well so uh I thought it'd be really interesting to sort of get him to talk about this because you last time we talked about science and Faith you did I did yeah and love to hear it from a different angle of science because um I'm a um a biologist um molecular biologist with my PhD so um yeah that's that's been my experience I love it when a physicist starts talking about this stuff as well because it's like I I don't understand physics really so it's it's great to hear it from a different angle I'm really looking forward to his (03:48) talk yeah absolutely so we're going to get into that so uh no doubt you'll have questions as we go through the talk after the talk if you've never been with us before uh we go into conversation Street which is where predominantly unless with a lot of questions cuz I don't know how much I can add to the conversation uh but we're going to ask a lot of questions around science and faith and can these two things work together and how these two things work together so uh whether you're with us YouTube Facebook Instagram or in person (04:14) make sure uh you get your questions ready as we go through it so I think with that zo let's roll VT let's get Josh on the screen and we'll be back after this so science and faith faith and science can they co-exist does faith require you to leave your brain behind and does science require you to sacrifice all that is Holy to an unfeeling Universe can you be a Christian and believe in science one of the crucial things I have learned over the past few years studying physics is that definitions are key misunderstanding often arises around this issue simply because what is meant (05:03) by science and what is meant by faith will vary from person to person before we get any further into our discussion then it is worth defining these terms it turns out though that it is quite tough to find universally agreed upon definitions for either science or faith so I have had to come up with my own these aren't perfect but they will help frame the discussion science according to me is the systematic experimental and rational study of the natural world it seeks to model how the world works with mathematics and with reason verifying these models with lots of trial and (05:45) error you could make the case that this definition of science is not broad enough as I completely ignore a definition that gives scope for the social sciences you would be making a fair point however because the discussion of faith and science typically revolves around a few key points that fall under the terms of Natural Science I will write up this concern as being beyond the scope of this talk and we'll move on to defining faith I found this definition particularly tricky but then remembered that the author of Hebrews has (06:18) thankfully already done a lot of the work for me Hebrews 11:1 says faith is confident did I say confident huh Hebrews 11:1 says faith is confidence in what we hope for and Assurance about what we do not see put another way faith is life altering trust that God is who he says he is and that he will do what he says he will do at first glance then it appears we have no problem because these two Realms seem completely separate science explores How the Universe functions whereas Faith seems to explore exclusively our relationship (06:55) with the Divine but we know conversations about faith and science are rar that simple or cordial why well primary points of tension between the two emerge in the creation Narrative of Genesis specifically around the issues of age and evolution in a paper published in 2020 a huge team of scientists using data from the plank space Observatory estimated the age of the universe to be 13. (07:30) 8 billion years another paper titled the modern theory of biological evolution published in 2004 suggests life itself evolved over 3.8 billion years the Genesis narrative however describes God creating everything within 6 days humanity is formed almost immediately after the rest of the universe the scale difference between these two time scales is pardon the pun astronomical literally like comparing the radius of a golf ball to the radius of the Sun I first wrestled with this seeming contradiction between the Genesis account and contemporary science when I (08:06) was a teenager I was a staunch young Earth creationist meaning I was convinced that the Genesis narrative was a literal scene by scene account of creation I argued that contemporary scientific theory was clearly in conflict with scripture that the universe and Earth were young and that creation happened exactly as described in those six days to back up my point I cited passages such as Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:7 that describe man as being formed intentionally and set apart from the other creatures as proof Genesis and evolution couldn't get on however more (08:43) than finding the arguments of contemporary science unsatisfactory I was motivated to defend this interpretation of Genesis by one overriding concern if I dismissed the Genesis creation account as a myth where would I stop I was worried that softening my stance would give me or anyone else license to Simply dismiss any other passage of scripture if it was inconvenient and the whole book consequently would lose its value my whole view of this problem changed when I was about 18 by this time I was at six form and I was studying Advanced maths (09:21) physics and computer science I had co-founded a philosophy club and was generally feeling on top of my academic game to stretch myself myself I started trying to wrestle with more academic texts in my free time and it was during this phase I decided to revisit the Genesis debate I picked up a book called seven days that divide the world this book written by John Lennox ameritus professor of mathematics at the University of Oxford fundamentally reshaped my understanding of the Genesis narrative in his book he offered a nuanced perspective in what I had thought was a binary debate (10:00) either you believed the Bible or you believed science but he pointed out that in the original Hebrew Genesis one could be read as the setup to a story that began some unspecified time later in Genesis 2 sort of in the same way if we read a story that went once upon a time God created the heavens and the Earth One Day the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters we wouldn't necessarily expect God began his hovering right after he finished his creating the amount of time between those two is ambiguous he also suggests (10:37) that the days didn't have to occur in a standard week he suggested the original text could be read such that an unspecified amount of time also occurred between the days of creation allowing for an extended creation process with hundreds to millions of years potentially passing between each day it was the first time I had encountered such a well-presented alternative explanation of creation that both tried to remain biblically faithful and presented a different view from the one I held I began to realize that maybe I could ask questions about how we interpret the creation narrative without (11:17) having to throw my faith down the drain at the same time if good old John Lennox could sit and think about it for a while then maybe so could I in the end I found the evidence he presented compelling and switched from a young Earth creationist view to the view presented in the book One often referred to as a days of divine theat view this was a watershed moment for me not only had my understanding of Genesis changed but my understanding of how I could read and approach the Bible had begun to change as well I started to suspect there was a depth to scripture I hadn't been aware (11:52) of before my academic Journey at the University of St Andrews pushed me into that extra depth without any armbands as a theoretical physics student I had to study a wide range of topics within physics and maths that not only dramatically changed how I think about the natural world but also my understanding of what science actually aims to do rather than seeing physics as unearthing the fundamental truths of our universe I began to see it more as our Lego block attempt to model something far greater and far more complex than we (12:29) could ever hope to truly understand and though our Lego model of the universe is incredibly clever and a work of art in its own way it is still just made of plastic simultaneously my understanding and experience of Faith was also undergoing a revolution I encountered formal theology for the first time the academic study of God and engaged in profound conversations on faith with a wide range of friends who studied a wide range of subjects from economics to history and even doctoral level theology there's one evening I remember particularly well in benis it only happened a few months ago where I found (13:09) myself in conversation with the head of the Divinity School about whether the DreamWorks animated movie The Prince of Egypt excellent film by the way should have included the story where God nearly killed Moses because he hadn't circumcised his son if you don't understand why I thought this was a very bad idea I would recommend you go read this story but he made some really good points that I never would have considered through these conversations in general my understanding of scripture has been refined time and time again not (13:41) only did my knowledge of Faith increase over my time at University but so did the breadth and depth of my experience I got stuck in with a church that I chose I joined the worship team and started being trained as a worship leader I led Church small groups and helped out with the Christian union I gave some of my first talks I began asking for and receiving words of knowledge I laid hands on the sick and prayed for them to get well and sometimes saw it happen there and there I began to hear the Lord more actively dayto day than I had ever thought possible even now I'm taking a (14:16) whole year out to work for the church and I've been actively involved in helping run the worship ministry as well as start new prayer initiatives all that is to say I have learned a lot not the least just how much I still don't know or understand but in light of all that learning and in light of all that Newfound experience I have come to believe that the scientific interpretation of the creation narrative just does not matter that much I now hold what you would call a non-c concordist view of the creation narrative in Genesis meaning I think (14:49) Genesis is better understood by studying the perspectives of authorial intent and the historical context of the readership than by scientific screw scrutiny I personally no longer think the narrative corresponds to a set of historical events at all but I also think it really wouldn't matter if they did as Steve touched on in his talk Genesis concerns itself with far bigger things the author didn't need to convey to the reader exactly how star formation could occur or how to estimate Universal age using (15:20) the Hubble parameter rather the author inspired by God would have been far more concerned with impressing upon his reader just who this God is answering fundamental questions about the meaning of the universe about life and about ourselves in the process Genesis teaches that God created not because he wanted servants but because he delighted in the act of creating and in US it teaches that creation and the material world were created to be good things it teaches that we are crafted in the image of God and that we are the only piece of his creation to have his breath his (15:59) essence within us it teaches that man has fallen from a good place thanks to his own Folly and it teaches that God is working to bring about good once more the whole story of scripture is concerned with who God is who we are in light of him and how he relates to us and Genesis sets that tone my close friend and one of my favorite poets rubyan sums it up in this except from her poem variations on the planets if we need anything down here self-important and Soggy and afraid if we down here need anything it's to be told we're smaller than we think but not (16:41) alone not thrown like Whitt dice into this pitch Arena Genesis tells us we are not the most important thing in the universe but we are loved by him that we were crafted intentionally regardless of the Lord's methods and that we have not been left alone how then do I address the fears I held as a teenager if I don't think Genesis is best understood as a literal historical account where do I stop when reading the rest of scripture this question bothered me for a while until I realized I already knew the answer you stop where it seems (17:19) reasonable we do this all the time um a classic example would be Jesus's intentionally shocking teaching in Matthew Chapter 5 where he said say it is better to cast out an eye or cut off a hand than have it cause you to do wrong now we don't read this literally I still have both my eyes and both my hands and the church in general does not condone lopping off body parts in Penance it's a bad idea don't do it we read this passage and claim that Jesus is using shocking language as a linguistic device to emphasize his point and we think this way about the passage (17:57) because in the light of the rest of scripture and what we know about the character of God it is much more reasonable than the alternative sometimes taking a passage at face value does it less Justice than trying to see it from multiple angles understanding scripture is often hard work and requires deep thought and maybe a little Divine assistance its content is frequently written to make the reader wrestle with an idea rather than feeding them a neat Paradigm take for example the par of the Ser in Mark 4 Jesus (18:31) explains he wraps deep truths in Parables so that only those who intentionally seek the treasure within will find it and this is somewhat ironic because he explains this to his disciples and then has to explain that very Parable to his disciples because they didn't understand it if Jesus's disciples themselves didn't understand some of his teaching on first listening we shouldn't expect to either not only is the content of scripture often a bit cryptic but we also have to contend with the fact that though the truth scripture teaches is for all people at all times (19:05) it's often written in the forms of a specific people from a specific time in the opening chapter of his book rereading Ruth the Hebrew scholar William tuman describes the writing style of the ancient hebraic authors and how it is dramatically different from how we write today he says we must actively cultivate new habits and develop new skills to read Ruth well and these skills are the the reading competencies required by all biblical literature reading the Bible is not a passive exercise when you open that book you aren't just reading words on a page you're wrestling with the words of the (19:42) Divine and you are going to need your wits about you Faith walking alongside Christ doesn't require you to follow blindly it requires you to bring everything you've got and thankfully nothing more our best efforts are not enough to earn salvation but surrendering ourselves to a God who is gracious beyond measure with all we are with all our intellect our questions and our troubles is enough to satisfy him to end science and Faith are not in contention rather they are largely concerned with different spheres science (20:15) with the physical functions of the universe and Faith with our relationship to God though I'm sure Scholars will continue to contend over interpretations of Creation in Genesis for years to come I can rest easy knowing I serve a God who in his generosity took the time and effort to prioritize Penning answers to the deepest questions of my heart rather than scientific ones questions of identity Destiny and the Divine these are questions that I'm sure you have to you and the answers are all the same so (20:49) if you are considering Faith but have been concerned you would have to surrender your mind at the door I invite you to bring your intellect bring your curiosity and bring your question bring your aame the Lord can take it and if you know the Lord already but feel as though the scaffolding of your faith is built upon a particular scientific interpretation of Genesis I invite you to take this message as an encouragement I have wrestled with the questions of faith and Science and have seen my thinking change as a result I'm sure as (21:22) I continue to ponder these questions in years to come the changes will become greater still you don't need to worry that scripture will break if you begin to wrestle with it you can ask questions of scripture you can find passages hard to understand that's okay and you can bring your deepest concerns to the Lord I promise you he can take it very good very good well we're back we're back for conversation street so get busy answering or answering asking your questions in the comments answer them as well by them I'd love to know (22:00) what your key takeway as well is from the talk so um what did you you know what was the key thing you got out of what Josh was saying um for me I couldn't get away from the fact his bedroom was really tidy but what can I say yeah you're looking at the talk from a particular perspective there I think Matt that that we don't always share which funnily enough is the whole story really isn't it the perspective with which we look at it and uh yeah I've I've got a lot of sympathy for Josh in that kind of worry of like but if this isn't true then what about everything else and uh we can (22:34) totally try and oversimplify all of this and uh I like his humility and saying do you know there's there's a lot that we need to Grapple with and then that's absolutely true and uh yeah I've been a Christian most of my life and and I totally Echo that where I'm at so well done Josh yeah keep going with that yeah absolutely absolutely it's an interesting one isn't it I mean you we could talk about the what it's like listening to your son do these kind of talks but um I think for Josh he has obviously had to work through questions (23:04) of Science and questions of faith and through working through both has come out stronger is is that something that you found yeah no absolutely um I think I don't think I've ever felt that same uh concern in terms of if I can't if I can't prove such and such then my faith means nothing thing because I think I think I've been fortunate that my faith was kind of went went deeper and in different directions quite early on in my Christian Life and and so in a sense um I've looked back and it's an interesting debate uh science creation (23:44) um creationist evolutionist um I've been asked many times how on Earth can you be a scientist and a Christian um but I'm people who are really really incredulous about it and and it always strikes me and going what what do you mean why why is that even a question so I don't feel like you know I felt like I sort of left it behind um quite early on because actually um when you do grapple with faith when you do grapple with Christ when you do grapple with the story that the the Bible tells the account the Bible gives of reality um (24:19) then yeah thing things like the Genesis account fade actually quite quickly um and and I've always been I've always had people I've always had colleagues and friends who assume that if they can just pin me down on Genesis suddenly all my faith falls apart and it's really not that simplistic and so I've always been yeah slightly intrigued by the argument and the kind of hate that the argument um generates because actually for me I think Josh said it in in his it it doesn't matter quite as much as some (24:53) people would maybe make you think it it does so um yeah it's really interesting I mean the the grappling of faith and the grappling of science um I I don't know it it feels like it's a bigger issue people have made it out to be a bigger issue than it actually is if that makes sense so there's um you hear a lot of people like Dawkins who will stand up and say you can't believe in God because of science um which is almost as nonsensical as saying you have to believe in God because of science you I mean it's it's like you just make these big bold statements without any any sort of sense (25:34) behind them um and so I'm not a scientist I remember when you um well when you started your talk last when you did the talk on faith and what does the Bible say about faith and Science and you talked about this from your point of view you reeled off you you're like I've got a PhD in this I've got a masters in this I've got a degree in this some would say I'm a scientist I can't say that I have a degree in accounting and I'm still not very good with numbers so it's um it's I it's fascinating is it so (26:03) it's never really bothered me in the sense of I've been a fan of science I've studied science I did um physics I enjoyed it I I I loved it but I've never struggled with science and my faith I'm wondering and one of the questions here is actually have you being a scientist and probably being more involved in the world of science than someone like me has that caused you to struggle with your faith it it really hasn't um um as I said because I think I think the elements of my faith and and what made me believe um weren't really about (26:41) the kind of nuts and bolts of science it it really was two different things for me so you know at University I was studying uh science I was studying uh Evolution natural selection studying genetics all these things for me it just stoked my faith it's like just gave me this awesome Wonder in the created order and just how complex it is and how fascinating it was to discover the nuts and bolts of it to to to be I think Josh used kind of build these Lego models of of reality reality is always more complex and so we must (27:17) always come really with a lot of humility into the whole debate because it is incredibly complex so I was always fascinated by it but actually my degree and and particularly learning about the kind of the the molecular level of creation as I would say the the molecular level of life um just absolutely made me just thrilled at the complexity and understanding the complexity being given a brain to begin to understand the complexity and yet within it there's still so much mystery and I think there's this kind of assumption that if we just keep on using those empirical methods of Science and (27:52) and measure and measure and measure and build our models finally we'll understand everything and actually science would say no no that is absolutely not been the case of the last I don't know how many uh decades and centuries of research um it just keeps throwing up complexity and questions and and that fascinates me and and so I I feel yeah I I feel quite secure in it but you know I I couldn't I have to say if if you brought an expert who was really going to uh find holes to pick in faith um it would be a very interesting (28:25) chat with them I I don't think I'd be able to give very much uh back in in a sense um but but yeah the humility I think is so so important we love as people to box things off as like creation of the world done or origins of the universe done yep understood that we proved that and it's like no no it just doesn't work like that the complexity is huge so we need to approach with humility but it is a very it is a very interesting discussion um but the truth is we will never know um and I mean one of the (28:59) why I've always kind of thought about it slightly separately is because the the the scientific method the repeating of an experiment to uh understand or to model something that is going on and to to demonstrate what is really happening in Natural Sciences um doesn't really apply to a single incredible event of things coming into being it it just you can't use that you cannot repeat the creation of the universe it's it's literally not a repat able experiment because here is the universe so how do you begin to use empirical U (29:33) experimental method and there's there's lots of answers that you you look at the kind of the surrounding of it and the small bits of it which is where Evolution came from that how do we explain the complexity of Life the diversity of life and so you begin to find what you can measure which is on a a very small scale but when you're talking about the origins of the Universe um well I mean maybe theoretical physics that that that's the realm you start going in that kind of learn little Lego blocks of of modeling but it's not a repeatable experiment um (30:04) and so yeah so again it's not something that really keeps me awake at night and going oh but what if what if God didn't create the world it's like well actually I've walked with Jesus all of my life and it makes so much sense and nothing else does actually when you begin to dig into it so so yeah it's it's not it's not a big threat to me which is is good news uh which is is why you're here will um so but it's an interesting one and I listening to your talk fascinating uh Absolut and again listening to Josh talk fascinating about the whole thing (30:40) because obviously you you've covered this way more than I have what I can tell you is in the comments and in the emails and in the stuff that you know you guys send through the crowd um there's often questions around suffering and there's often questions around science like has science has not science disproved god um which I think it's fair to say we would firmly believe no it hasn't but one of the questions that came in and you were talking about empirical evidence a minute ago and we were talking about this before we went (31:10) live one of the the comments that came in this week was you cannot prove the existence of God ever so therefore religion should not be a thing and that is such a narrow view of reality um to depend upon empirical measurement as your your kind of yard stick of if I can't see it touch it measure it repeat it which is basically the scientific method it doesn't exist it's not real it it's like and that to me yeah you flip it around the whole idea of scientific thought is to test paradigms is to test things with experiment and if you're if you start (31:53) off with this very narrow sense of what you're going to call real which is what you could physically measure well already you're being very unscientific would would be my argument um there's a lot of rationale in faith there's a lot of rationale in the biblical record there's a lot of rationale actually in Genesis about God as a Creator uh as an authority figure um as making Mankind in in the image of God separate different from the rest of creation there's an awful lot of rationale in that even though you can't empirically uh measure it and and this is where the humility is needed because we sort of (32:34) take something like this is the way we do science and you apply it to God and go I can't prove God therefore God doesn't exist it's like well that's your perspective that's one perspective um but yeah it is quite a narrow one I'd suggest um to to to insist on God being you know going to your the way way you can measure and and therefore I mean it's yeah it it just doesn't work and I think you use the example of like you can't you can't empirically prove love um and you you can measure different things that might suggest that someone's in love but but love in itself is like well it it doesn't you can't really (33:16) design Define it through experiment or or like kind of physical measures that there's something there's something more complex going on there um and I think this is the case actually for a lot of this debate there there something more complex so so rather than starting off from a very fixed and narrow Viewpoint question you know allow the kind of the complexity and go this is really interesting I'm going to explore I'm going to explore different perspectives different the theological perspective absolutely is valid in this as is um a natural scientist um so don't don't (33:48) don't restrict yourself from the very start because it'll be a very dissatisfying exploration I'd suggest you live a very angry life uh it's um but I I kind of Wonder with this whole thing you know and I if I approach it maybe from the Christian point of view that one of the things that I see um we were talking about this again before we went live I see sort of three groups I see the if I can put it this way The Far Side of Christians The Far Side of scientists and in the middle people who maybe like you like Josh who (34:21) are willing to have a conversation about both things and so you have Christians who go we cannot fundamentally listen to anything of science because it fundamentally contradicts what I believe about scripture and then you have scientists who go I cannot believe anything about religion because it fundamentally conflicts with everything I know about science and then you have people willing to talk what would you say to Christians maybe who are watching this or listening to this who have that dogmatic view it (34:51) almost feels like they're afraid of Science and I can understand why people like Dawkins would attack Christians on the basis of science because it feels like for quite a lot of us we're afraid to talk about it to go into it to have different conversations about it yeah I think that's absolutely right that um and something leveled against Christians in the debate often is that you do not understand science and I think that's absolutely valid and true and you know not everyone is trained in science um thinks in that (35:20) sort of way has that perspective as I said that there's a lot of complexity and so when you don't know about something you kind of like with any issue you find you find an opinion or a perspective that sort of makes sense to you but you can kind of hang your um your argument off because it's like I'm I'm not going to do a degree in in biological science I'm never going to get to that point of really knowing so I'm going to look to these people to kind of give me the opinion that I can say and can I'd like to suggest (35:52) tentatively that Christians can be very arrogant at times as as conscien as can everybody let's face it it's it's a human trait um but there there there can be sometimes an arrogance in we know God and God's all powerful and this is what we believe so you're wrong um that's absolutely not a Christlike attitude um I would say you don't see very much of that in the life of Jesus who is the the uh the go-to in Christianity you know that that's our example we believe Jesus is the the image of the invisible (36:28) god um and so sometimes yeah it's understood that we we won't particularly uh gain that the kind of depth that each side has um but again I come back to some humility um and you don't have to defend God you don't have to prove God to anybody um if God is a god worthy of worship and I believe God is um why are we trying to defend God why are we trying to be like I I I need to prove God to people um actually just you know just just take a step back understand that you don't know everything and I think Josh elucidated that very well and you know I I know that Journey as well I (37:14) mean yeah at 18 you'd think you know everything don't you generally about everything whether you're a Christian or not um and and as as you grow older you realize how little you know about everything so you know go on that Journey don't be afraid to go on that Journey as a Christian and say there's stuff I don't understand there's stuff in the Bible I really struggle with um that is not a problem um but don't throw throw everything away because of an opinion um either way and as a scientist don't throw away religion just because (37:41) it doesn't make sense to you because you can't measure it um don't do it just keep exploring let's let's be humble let's be humble so finally I've got a question here I can answer um so Al's put I love the talk key takeaway was that when you encounter something that is your faith the answer isn't to dig your heels in and continue believing in the same interpretation but instead Embrace The Challenge and develop a deeper understanding of your belief and re-evaluate your interpretation with new information my question would be when (38:12) analyzing earlier chapters of the Bible the Old Testament can it still be possible to take into account the context of later chapters of the Bible the New Testament given the chronology of the Bible May mean that those earlier chapters were written way before the new ones thanks for your response well olle I'm going to answer that I'm going to say yes you can uh in fact we do this all the time so um we're working our way through Genesis coming up in the next few weeks we're going to be talking about a guy called Abram or he changed his name to Abraham who is the founding (38:43) father of both the Jewish faith and um Islam and it sort of all comes from this this one guy so the sort of center of all Faith well actually we learn a lot about Abraham from the New Testament so in the book of Romans which is a book Paul wrote to the church at Rome and in the book of Hebrews we learn a lot about Abraham and it gives us context and it gives us information which is really powerful because a lot of this stuff was also passed down by tradition there's a lot of understanding that they had that we certainly don't have in the modern (39:15) day West um so yes and I think actually it's a good principle especially when it comes to the Old Testament to take something that you're reading and to interpret that in the light of the entire Bible Bible um because God's story is revealed throughout the whole of scripture and I think um where Christians have missed it over the years is when they take one thing written in one verse in one portion of the Bible and don't understand that in the context of the entire portion of scripture and so um I think it's a very good thing to do uh is is the answer to to read around it and to to grow that I don't know if you want (39:51) to throw anything in here but that would be my answer yeah I'd say the more you read the Bible the more there's a an incredible consistency of God's character nature and and for me an explanation of of The Human Condition and and our human experience and you know that that's that's throughout and that starts very much in Genesis um and yeah you're right if if you if you start pinning your faith on a particular cause or a particular tenant of of faith and ignore again the complexity and and the the vastness of of God and actually our Human Experience then you're yeah you're on Shaky Ground (40:35) um really and it's it's quite easy to be dissuaded from something in that um but the amazing thing about scripture and what's unique about the Bible um and obviously that's the the the Jewish scriptures are there and actually a good chunk of the Quran is is also can be found in the Bible um that that consistency is is the amazing thing over so many years over so many authors and I don't think there's another comparable document with that same kind of consistency um and not all is obvious first first off and and and as Josh made the the point with The Parables you do need to Mullen it and and dig into it um (41:18) and read around it um and that's yeah I mean that that that is the Journey of Faith but it is a remarkable and unique uh document yes it really is um do you guys have any questions uh in person you've all been very quiet very very quiet which is unusual especially for you so here's a here's a question right um the speaker changed his views quite dramatically from a young Earth creationist to a non-literal interpretation does this suggest that religious beliefs are more about personal interpretation than objective truth oh that's a well worded question I (41:56) was thinking similarly actually when when Josh was saying that um and I can see that that would be uh an accusation that that could be leveled against against Joshua or anyone of Faith um but again I think I think there needs to be humility in it I think if you if Faith makes absolute sense to you at the age of 18 and you've got it all stitched up um I'd I'd suggest that you're wrong and you're kind of missing an awful lot and and I think and that's certainly been my experience as I've grown as a Christian I look back and and (42:35) think yeah I thought I had it and and now I actually understand even less um and and yeah I mean that is that is the Journey of Faith that that's what that's what faith is it's wrestling with things that are not clear and not necessarily understood if it was all just tick boox and very clear and done and dusted it wouldn't be faith it wouldn't be a journey it would just be yeah that's that's that's what it is um so um again it's a it's it's a very different it's a different Journey from the scientific Journey the scientific Journey seeks to uh reduce the (43:13) complexity into something that we can understand and tick off and go we've proved that we proved that we proved that we understand everything um which is a remarkable um Endeavor but I don't think actually it will end in in us having nicely everything boxed off and understood and uh and explainable in a classroom um but in a sense that's what science is trying to do because we are naturally inquisitive as as Humanity we want to understand um faith for those who have been traveling in faith for a long time um I mean it's a very unsatisfying conversation like (43:57) see how this conversation is very unsatisfying for those are like I just want to know what's real and what's true and it's like it's not that easy that there's a there's a wrestling there's a journeying there's a there's a a lers of Revelation there's a lifetime of working it out that is the Journey of Faith and it's and maybe this is why there's such that that those Polar Polar groups that you talk about because it's it's a very different approach to to truth really um it's the faith is kind of walking and and and understanding the different layers and understanding that it's never (44:28) going to be completely satisfactorily boxed off and one day we'll meet God and go why what was that about um whereas I think from a scientific point of view you want to get to the point where Humanity knows everything um and there right there is the topic of a talk in a couple of weeks um and that's why we struggle with God because actually we want to know we want to be God we W to understand it all we want to be able to explain it all we want to be able to explain it to each other and go yeah we we have it we know it and as we see (45:04) further on in the account of Genesis that was the origin of sin and evil is this the talk you're going to be doing by this is the talk I will be doing yes nice plug I like it I like it it's um it's an interesting one and also uh just another quick plug Sharon um did a great talk uh what does the Bible say about Truth where you talked about subject truth and objective Truth uh that is available on the crowd website if you want to dig into this whole objective or this whole topic of subjective truth and objective truth which is another (45:39) mindfield uh but it's just really fascinating and the whole thing uh Works super well I'd say I mean knowing Josh and coming back to that question um we live in a world which is becoming more and more polarized more and more convinced that I am right you are wrong and the other side is convinced they're right and you are wrong and we are shouting at each other louder and louder and we are calling each other bigger and bigger insults and I think it's a real shame and it feels like we are losing the ability to debate and to see things from different points of (46:15) view and I think whether you're a Christian whether you're not a Christian whether you're um wherever you are on that scale I think humility here plays such an important part on both sides of the the field actually asking questions and not being afraid to ask them and not being afraid to dig into it and search out the answers and not being afraid to change your mind like there are things there are views that I held about the Bible when I was 18 and didn't know everything um and now I'm a little bit older and know very little uh I would I (46:49) would look at my own journey and go I have changed how I think about that but you know what I changed how I think about parenting as I parented I changed about how I lead a company as I've led a company it's okay to develop in your thinking because that's what makes us human that's what makes this whole thing beautiful and marvelous and critical thinking and the ability to think I just see it as a as a talent which is diminishing do you know what I mean and we we're so busy that we don't have time to think because we hang around with people that tell us that we're right all the time and don't (47:27) challenge our thinking and I think it's problematic and I I would strongly encourage you not to be in that environment both Christians and and non-christians yeah yeah agree with that um and I think I think one of the it it's sort of linked to what you said but I mean one of the assumptions about the The View that oh scien has dis proven god um is that now religion will just kind of Wither on the vine you know it's it's held this kind of superstitious hold over people uh for all these thousands of years but now now the the the truth is revealed uh through science and (48:10) therefore um everyone's going to change their mind and and realize that that God is a myth um and you kind of have to look around and in the field of science and everywhere else and look at Faith and the place of faith in the world and the Human Experience and question that and question well maybe that's not how it works maybe that's not the the reason um that maybe that that's not the solution o of all this kind of learning because there is an awful lot of learning there's an awful lot of research done there's an awful lot of um scientific Endeavor and yet faith I (48:46) would say is as strong as ever across the world and it's not just blind stupid people who are too scared to ask questions it's across the board and um um yeah with with with that with that increasing revelation of Science of of how things work um that that's a kind of sorry when when you do an experiment you you H you have a hypothesis you want to test and so the hypothesis is we find out about this religion dies and then the hypothesis you do the experiment you you you've revealed this and oh look religion hasn't died oh gosh it's thriving oh people may be looking for (49:30) something else other than just the mechanics of the Universe um and and that makes sense to them and that makes sense to a lot of people you've got to then question your original hypothesis and say maybe I've got it wrong here and maybe I should talk to some people of faith I should trying to understand this this Journey of Faith a bit more and and the place of Faith with my uh my mechanistic way of understanding the world well you've answered that question question which said uh if science keeps advancing and changing our understanding (50:01) of the world won't this keep forcing religious interpretations to change too uh I I think in closing because I'm aware of time I would say to you if you're a Christian go and explore science don't be afraid of that and if you're if you're not and you're based on science go and explore Christianity go have some fun with it go ask your questions um and go look at it because I do think they can coexist obviously I think that I'm sat here uh with some opinions on the whole matter um but yeah I hope you've got a lot out of that any (50:30) more questions do reach out to us do let us know we would love to hear them uh next week we have does anybody actually know what's coming up no no no no one knows next week we've got something coming on with Genesis um I should have checked this beforehand I think it's Dave connley or is it Jenny Marin no it's Jenny Marin uh next week so we're talking about um starting to talk about desire we're going to get into that whole side of things things uh so a little bit less science a little bit more psychology next week uh we're going (51:01) to get into all of that so do make sure you like subscribe and all of that good stuff come join us for that it be great to see you both in person obviously uh and online uh that is what's coming up next week but yeah thanks so much for joining us we are going to close the live stream down in about 10 minutes time so around 800m here in the UK we will be on the Google meet uh go to the website go. crow. (51:29) Church meet it will come up in the comments hopefully um and it'll certainly come up on the end go join us there come say how is it if you'd like to great to meet you um come talk to either me or will we'd love to have a chat with you uh we'll be there for about five or 10 minutes at 8 o' so uh we won't be there beforehand because in person Q Laura we are going to go do some uh we're going to close with some worship um and we're going to be doing that so we'll see you in that room in about 10 minutes time but uh that's it for me anything else from you no good night nice to nice to see you virtually (52:02) and in in person and uh yeah I I love what you said actually go have some fun go have some fun and explore go do it God bless you have a great week bye for now [Music] [Music]
