What Does The Bible Say About Church?

well good evening and welcome to crowd church uh my name is madmonson and beside me is the all-round beautiful person which is tim bond tim how are we doing i am wonderful thanks if not very pixelated but i'm really good great to be here good man good thank you for joining me tim is helping me host crowd church tim is a good friend of mine he is a church pastor all the way from jersey where i say all the way from yeah i mean you're still in jersey the signal is coming from jersey uh and tim how long have we known each other now oh gosh mate you should know i've had a memory flush but uh it must be what 15 15 years it's a good long term i know well a long time yeah very good friends yeah completely fossilized absolutely absolutely matt cruz in the comments here we go pinky perky and yorkshireman i'm not quite sure what that means matt but still let's let's uh let's go with that uh dan orange has been texting me letting me know that we have several different feeds going on we do we do have uh if you were watching uh the live stream as it literally went live the first few seconds um you will notice there's a slight glitch in the matrix all that has now been refreshed and resorted so hopefully you're here with us on the main feed if you are say hi in the comments be great to hear from you uh today tim what are we talking about do you remember have i actually told you i think i it just it swung by me once about 15 weeks ago but if we're talking about church what does the bible say about what the church is yeah exactly well done you've passed possibly oh the in-jokes so yeah we are talking about what does the bible say about church and the most high reverend uh john harding is doing said talk and not only that john is actually going to be joining us for conversation street after uh the worship section so if you're new to crowd church let me just explain sorry we're going to have the talk what does the bible say about church by john are we then going to have a time of prayer and worship just a very short time of prayer and worship and then we've got conversation street which is where we talk about your questions your comments uh about john's talk and john is going to be joining both tim and myself for that uh in about i guess about 25 minutes time yeah yeah john says here in the comments he's looking forward to the questions i'm sure he is so get ready to ask i'm sure matt cruz winding up a few already uh so yeah so that's what's going to happen today that's what's going to go on so come say hi to both tim and myself be great to hear from you uh in the comments we've got john barrington in the comments i've got dan orange texting me but i don't see him in the comments so dan you just need to get busy on facebook anyway all of that said uh tim shall we jump straight into it yeah let's go for it bob let's do it let's jump straight into it so uh this is part of our series what does the bible say about where we look at what the bible says about some really common questions and this week is all about the church what does the bible say about church here is john harding mr farrington roll vt what does the bible say about the church for the past um seven years or so i have been a church leader that's been my full-time job back when i was 17 18 years old i was doing a level chemistry biology maths and i felt god speak to me really clearly about becoming a church leader so i went off to bible college at the age of 18 i did a degree in theology and then we moved to liverpool to become part of a church called frontline church in its early days for maybe 15 years or so i then worked as a school teacher in education whilst all my spare time i was continuing to serve in that church leading worship preaching leading small groups being invested in as a leader helping to develop and raise up other leaders i did all of that not because it was my job but because i loved it because i loved the church because it was great fun it was meaningful and worthwhile to invest my life in serving in a local expression of church around nine years ago god then opened the door for me to leave teaching and to work for the church and eventually become the leader of the church the senior minister i suppose you could say that my whole adult life has been very much focused on the church i'm speaking today from that point of view as someone who loves the church as someone who thinks a church is incredibly important incredibly precious that's my starting point for my talk today the church is god's idea the church is the object of jesus's affection the church is jesus's beloved bride the church is the focus of the holy spirit's power and work in the world the church is the hope of the world the church is both broken and beautiful it's a bride being prepared for her bridegroom it is a victorious army marching into battle it is a fruitful vineyard that is being pruned and bearing fruit it is a body made up of many diverse parts working together in unison just some of the ways the bible describes the church as a church leader let me tell you that the church can be a right pain in the you-know-what my biggest joy and frustration it's been the cause of great pain for some people the church has both harmed and helped many people and yet honestly i can't think of anything more worthy of pouring my life into than the church but what is the church what is the meaning of the word church and what did jesus say about the church well the first mention of the word church is in matthew's gospel chapter 16 verse 18 where jesus says to one of his disciples to peter jesus says i will build my now that's unusual language in the whole spread of the bible it's a new word introduced by jesus into the bible but the concept of church is woven through the entire bible on every page now that word church spoken by jesus here is the greek word ecclesia it simply means an assembly of people a gathering a community it's from the verb callow to call and the prefix ek meaning out the called out one so imagine a large group of people and god cause a group from within that larger group together and gathers them together to himself the ecclesia so jesus is introducing a new word here but it's not a new concept which actually is a brilliant organizational leadership technique to use a new word to redefine an old familiar concept to help people break free from an old way of thinking about something introduce a new term jesus was taking that ancient concept of god's people gathering together and he was redefining it in a radically new way and so the whole story of scripture eve is taken out the side of adam in the same way that israel the nation is taken out of the whole nations of the earth the church is called out from among the peoples of the earth to be this distinct people belonging to god in a new way in a radically different way to what had gone on before you see and well actually i've just got back from israel and if you go and visit a place like israel you'll see that setting for the bible you'll see that throughout the region there are synagogues the remains of buildings where the whole of the community gathered together to worship god to read his work together gatherings assemblies of people as community of faith and you'll also see in israel the temple mount the location where the first and second temple stood incredibly impressive buildings where people would gather together to worship god and those gatherings could rightly be thought of as ecclesia as church god's gathered people but here's the thing when jesus died on the cross something incredible happened in that temple building in the inner sanctuary in the in the holy of holies now that inner temple that inner sanctuary had this enormous curtain to keep ordinary people out of the presence of god the curtain had two cherubin angels engraved on it to represent the two angels placed on either side of paradise garden gates in eden to keep sinful humans from the presence of god and as jesus died that huge temple curtail was torn in two right down the middle from the top to the bottom why why was the temple curtain torn was it to let ordinary people into the holy place of god's presence no it wasn't to let people in it was to symbolize that god had left the building god had left the building god no longer was going to dwell in special buildings built by human hands he was going to dwell now in a new kind of temple a new kind of building and that building that new kind of church is simply this it is you and i humans post the cross of jesus we get so cleansed so made holy that god now dwells in us we are now the temple of the living god that's what paul says about the church in one corinthians 3 16. the apostle peter puts it this way when he says that each one of us has become like living stones built together into a living temple one peter two five we become the church we are the church that's why the church building is not the church a building is not the church we don't go to church church isn't something you go to on a sunday it's not even something you stream into your house on a sunday afternoon we are the church the people of god become the church when we receive jesus we get woven into a new spiritual community a new spiritual building the church and when jesus says i will build my church i believe that's what he's referring to he's referring to one church the entire church the one universal church or to use an old english word the one catholic with a little c the one catholic church the one body all believers past present and future somehow mystically woven together into a spiritual temple in which god's presence dwells we are the church so christian's saying i'm not part of a church that makes as much sense as a person saying i'm not part of humanity when you gave your life to jesus you became intrinsically woven into something it is who we are a christian can be no less part of the church than a human can be no less part of humanity it's our identity now there are two aspects to understanding church in the new testament there's this one mystical spiritual church and then there are descriptions of lots of local mini-physical versions of that one church you've got the universal church and we've got local church both are in the new now the universal church all believers past present and future is a little bit difficult to get your head around because it exists right now in heaven so imagine heaven for a moment imagine the throne room of heaven described in the bible there is jesus seated on a heavenly throne and around him a great uncountable multitude of worshipers men women children from every tribe group nation radically ethnically diverse the martyrs are there those who have gone before and died in the faith there are those who've put their faith in jesus and left this earthly temporary life they are there and they are all gathered around the throne in the presence of king jesus bowing down before him it's unbroken encounter and perfect surrender that's the church there is so much more we could say about this gathering in heaven but let me add one more detail to this picture of the gathering around the throne room that is literally mind-blowing right now in this moment in this gathering of worshipers that one church you were there and i am there right now we are part of that one gathering now i don't know about you but i i can't quite get my head around that but it's what the bible says that king jesus is seated on the heavenly throne and that you and i have been raised up with jesus and we are seated there with king jesus in heavenly places we see in ephesians 2 6 colossians 3 it's part of what it means for us to be in christ that right now we are part of that one gathering and and this is the big point that i want to make that that that gathering is the church one universal gathering in heaven a gathering and assembly that is already right now taking place it's already happening that is what we mean by the church all believers past present and future gathered around the throne of king jesus in encounter and in surrender and so for a local church to really be a local church it has to be an expression of the one church here on earth that's the whole point of the christian life isn't it it's to bring heaven to earth to be heaven on earth and so i think we can best describe a local church like this it's a group of believers gathered with king jesus at the center in encounter in surrender it is an echo of heaven on earth it is a shadow of heaven on earth and if you know your old testament bible you know that's exactly how the tabernacle tent was described how the temple was built they were built on the blueprint of that one heavenly gathering and so when jesus then goes on to say matthew 18 20 when he says that when two or three are gathered together in my name there i am in the midst of them jesus is describing the physical earthly dynamic of church a group of people gathered with king jesus at the center that simple that pure that uncomplicated now for the first 300 years of christianity they got that they christians did without special buildings they gathered mainly in homes sometimes out in fields sometimes on beaches they gather to worship jesus to encounter jesus to bow before king jesus in surrender often those gatherings were illegal if the authorities found out about them they were arrested they were imprisoned even killed but their gatherings were reflecting on earth the reality of that heavenly gathering and these churches these house churches they multiplied at a massive rate the church spread within 300 years from the time of jesus across the known world as far as places like england i understand that the fastest growing church in the world today is in iran the church in iran is growing a rapid rate but it's small groups of believers meeting in threes and fours in people's homes and then as new believers get added to those groups they multiply into new groups it's all done in secret because it's illegal to gather as christians in iran the the chinese underground church has been meeting and multiplying in this way for several decades now the chinese communist party has been trying unsuccessfully to close these unregistered church groups down but it's now estimated that there are over 68 million christians gathering in this way in china that makes communist china well on its way to becoming the largest christian community in the world christians meeting in the home so church has never been about church buildings that's why when jesus said i will build my church my ecclesia he was deliberately using a different word to redefine an ancient concept the concept of being the people of god together communities encountering the presence of god learning how to surrender to god it's never been about the buildings but then well this huge shift took place around two years ago didn't it covet struck the world went into lockdown and churches were forced to close only churches weren't closed church buildings were closed but the church became more alive and more vibrant and more open than it had been for many years and christians started to innovate and find new ways of being the church together i suppose that's what we're doing today that's what crowd church is isn't it it's a group of people gathering together with jesus at the center to encounter jesus and to learn how to surrender our lives more fully to jesus we to kraut church are a shadow of that heavenly universal church we're an echo on earth an expression on earth of that one ecclesia in heaven before lockdown if i'm honest i wasn't really sure about the idea of online church i thought it was always going to be better to meet physically but of course kovid stopped us from doing that and we discovered quite unexpectedly that all the things that make church church here on earth could work online we could have fellowship together online community we could encounter jesus and worship jesus together online we could gather around god's word and allow his work to challenge us and shape us together online we could give online that's an expression of worship and surrender giving we could pray for one another online and experience god's healing power at work online we could make jesus known online all the things that are expressions of that one church in heaven all the things that are part of being a local church here on earth could be fleshed out in the ways that we are doing them here today who would have thought and if you think about it you know as a church leader i hear those who say things like oh well online church isn't real church it's only a real church if it's in person in a building it's second rate but of course as we've seen it has never been about buildings you you can go to a church building and still not be part of the church and going to church makes you no more a christian than going to mcdonald's makes you a hamburger or sitting in a garage makes you a car you can go to a church building as a christian and meet with other christians for a church service an hour and a half on a sunday and not engaging fellowship not engaging worship have no intention of allowing that experience and god's word to call you into a more surrendered life so it really doesn't follow that somehow being physically present is automatically a better way of being church than gathering virtually online as we're doing here today jesus is still building his church inherent in that word church is innovation and one of the ways jesus is building his church today is through online communities like here at crowd church of course we still need to be committed to that community to belong to serve to know others and be known by others in and we'd encourage everyone who connects into crowd church to find or to form physical communities of believers physical expressions of church even if it's in twos or threes in fact it's better often in twos or threes but jesus is building his church one assembly one gathering in heaven around the throne in encounter and surrender and our job is to echo that flesh that out here on earth in a myriad of different ways to learn how to be the church bringing jesus's presence into the midst of his people because that is our eternal destiny the church here on earth is not perfect but it is precious and it is powerful and we belong to it through christ as we enter into his family his community through his saving work on the cross but of course that demands something of us we have to play our part here on earth in preparation for eternity and as we do so well let me tell you that is when the christian life really starts to make sense and really starts to bear fruit and that is what i believe the church is all about that's good great talk john great talk uh from spj there uh we call him spj's it turns for senior pastor john uh so great talk from john there john is going to be joining us in about five minutes time he's going to be joining tim and myself we are going to be chatting through that and we have got lots of questions let me tell you uh i've got lots of questions to ask john we're going to get into all of that so if you have any questions any comments on what john has said do let us know in the comments you can put them in the comments on facebook or youtube wherever you're watching the live stream and of course if you're watching this and it's not live are you you're watching it on ketchup you can still ask your questions we would love to hear them you can still put them in the feed and we do try and respond to all of them um but yes put your questions your comments in there before we get into conversation street we're actually busy thinking about your questions and your comments we're gonna have a brief time of worship and reflection right now this is just where uh john talked a bit about worship when he was talking about church this is just where we sing uh or some of us don't sing that well either way it doesn't matter what words come out of our mouth uh if possible uh or just think about the words uh as they come on screen just as a sign of worship to god and just think about the goodness of god this song that we're gonna what a beautiful name it is talking about the name of jesus in other words i'll let this song explain to you you'll get it before the song comes on before the song plays we are going to uh for the ukraine we've been doing this every week we've been reading together um a prayer from 24 7 prayer by pete greg and we're going to read that together the words will come on the screen so just read that and pray for the ukraine and then we're going to go into a time of worship tim and john and myself will be back very very shortly so here we go john over to you father god king of all nations we cry out to you now for the people of ukraine we ask you to rescue those who are vulnerable from the hands of their enemies that they may live life without fear before you all of their days lord have mercy lord of lords and prince of peace our politicians are predicting the biggest war in europe since 1945 and we simply cry out to you urgently to write another story in our time for the dark machinations of evil men give wisdom beyond human wisdom to peacemakers seeking an equitable and less violent way may politicians exercise the wisdom from above which is peaceable gentle willing to yield and full of mercy holy spirit we pray for the church in ukraine a nation in which 70 percent of the population call themselves christian give our many brothers and sisters in that nation courage in this crisis that they may proclaim the good news of your kingdom bind up broken hearts and bring comfort to all who mourn you lord make war cease to the end of the earth you break bows shatter spears and burn shields with fire and so we ask you now to save the lives of many people in ukraine make a peace that is strong and not weak de-escalate this crisis we hear of wars and rumors of wars but you lord are our rock our fortress and our deliverer our hope is in you and so we address the nations now in the name of jesus we say be still and know god he is exalted among the nations he shall be exalted in the earth you were the word at the beginning one with god the lord was high you're hidden glory in creation now revealed in you are christ what a beautiful name it is the name of jesus christ my king nothing compares to this you didn't want heaven without us so jesus sin was great your love was greater what could save what a wonderful name it is jesus christ what a wonderful name it is the name of death could not hold you it failed or before you you silence the bulls of sin and grave the heavens are roaring the praise of your glory for you are raised to life again you have no rival you have yours is the kingdom yours is the glory yours is it is is well there we go thanks for the heads up john farrington no one noticed him no one at all no one noticed uh i just flew in there just flew in listen it is great to have uh you both on the screen let me just do a quick uh intro as to why it's good that you're both here you are two men who have devoted well a significant portion of their lives to church you both passed the churches um tim like i mentioned pastors a church in jersey john pastors a church here in liverpool which crowd is part of frontline church um you've both sort of given your lives in effect to this thing called uh john you mentioned it a little bit in your talk a little bit why i was curious tim have you got any thoughts on this why have you given the majority of your life to this thing called church i first it's like there is nobody investment life is an investment we each breath we take each thing we do each thing we choose to give our time to uh is an investment because we select what we give our time to therefore everything we give our time to is something we don't give our time to and for me the church is the the center of god's plan for the world the definition of what the church looks like well that's much more of a conversation yeah it is it is a little bit more and and john again you've given a lot of your life to the church i mean you started life in teaching and then you've you've kind of gone into full time we call it full-time ministry um just a quick why again why have you given so much of your life to something called the church i mean on one sense matt i said in the talk that i felt the sense of god calling me into that i don't think that the church is any more valuable than serving god as a mum at home or as a teacher or or anything it's about being obedient to what god calls you to i could give you all sorts of spiritual answers but actually if i'm honest we grew up as a very poor family my dad died when we were 18 weeks old and there was a local church that absolutely loved us and served us and i thought this is where else would you find a community that um shows such love people became like my family and so when i pray for frontline church i pray every day for my spiritual family and i love them like my family so in one sense there's nothing virtuous is that it's like we need to belong to something and there's a huge value i mean most people in the church only find out it's value when something goes wrong and what you find is a community that loves and cares and wraps around and that's why i think tim i'm totally with that's why it demands something others in investment but also at some point i was determined to say today matt i think you'll do an amazing job leading crowd church and it's not you don't get the same hugs do you know what i mean when i go in on a sunday to the physical building i get the hugs i get the highs you know what i mean um but i hope people express their appreciation for the way that you're serving and leading this aspect this expression of church because i think it's a really valuable thing and you're doing a great job oh bless you now i appreciate that it's fun and let's let's dig into that a little bit you said in your talk um that before coverage you weren't that convinced about online church but you know i think covert has sort of changed your mind what do you see are some of the key differences between what we call in-person church and online church i mean i'm not sure if you want to go theoretical what makes church church i'm not sure there has to be differences we've never got as far as exploring what would happen if someone wanted to get baptised in the crowd community but as far as i'm aware people have connected them through this we've encouraged them to belong to local communities of believers in the flesh as well so um i think what happened was necessity forced us to invent as it's often done and we discovered that you know i've prayed for people in a zoo meeting to be healed and they've experienced physical healing so we found that god's holy spirit was not restricted um on the online stuff a lot of people who say i'm not sure about it it's probably around that common tim made around investment we don't want church to become a consumer thing christianity is not a self-help program to help you become your best self it's not about self individualization it's about learning how to surrender in community to god as we serve one another and so you know you can go to a physical church and never do that never let it ask anything of you never let it challenge you go in and walk out the door you can go online church and do that and you can go online church and serve and encourage others and commit and allow it to shape you and challenge you and those are the aspects that i think make church church so in that sense actually i think other than the very obvious physical things of like space and physicality um i'm not sure there is a lot of difference really yeah that's very good point and i would agree and i think i think covert has forced us to think in very different ways and actually there it's quite interesting how that's worked out tim what do you think about this phrase um the church is the hope of the world what do you think that or what does that mean to you john made an interesting point and we were talking at church this morning about about um us as god's people being the presence of god and there's this there's this idea of like the church being the body of christ which i love for a million different reasons you know because all different parts of the body different parts do different things uh a mine likes to say churches like granola just full of fruits nuts and flakes but i i like to think of it like a granola bar um fruits nuts and flakes like me um stuck together with jesus right um so all different expressions of of person all different kinds of personalities even different kinds of views um and and approaches and passions and emphasis with jesus at the very core of who we are being an expression of the presence of god in the world you know the online church question is a really good question again love what you're doing i want to echo everything that john said and i'll give you my backs details at the end um but um you know i i think for for me i kind of i i need a physical expression because i sometimes need a physical reminder that there are people that need um love and so sometimes being with others in small communities like you're also doing in crowd gives an opportunity for me to think who am i going to love well who am i going to be the presence of god to um today you know and and it's not just about paying for someone shopping but like like john said there um the potential for people to experience the love of god through the church being their family it is is something of incredible beauty um so yeah i've definitely gone from the question that you asked me but i love it so much how people can be completely different glued together by jesus and love people and be that expression of his presence into the world no that's great and one of the questions john um is i mean this whole idea of family you know and god um putting us in church and putting the lonely and family and doing that through church which is just i mean i love church i've been a massive fan of it um what do you do if a member feels the family are not as welcoming as they could be well i mean let's remember that jesus is perfect and the church is not um it's been perfected and um i think it's very easy to go in a building and expect everyone to come and wrap around you and that's why again i'm at that point it's about encounter and surrender i i think we want to become better at welcoming people both online and in physical spaces um and we want to grow in that but it's like if church is truly spiritual family it's like at some point i'm going to say to my mum when she's around at family gathering oh sorry mum not quite giving you the intention i should have done uh but i love you so i just think churches operate in grace we need bags of patience and love for one another and that's actually why not that i want to sort of digress too much but tim has been doing that so you know it's this idea dietrich bonhoeffer talks about cheap grace cost costly grace cheap discipleship crossfit discipleship you know when someone says um well i just go to the forest for a walk on my own the the forest is my cathedral it's my church and of course actually that really demands very little of us as a person when tim talks about nuts and flakes or whatever the point is when you rub shoulders with people who are different to you who you who you would not select as friends because you have perhaps different world views or different stages of life i mean where else does that really happen in society where we share a mutual love for one another so um but but that means i'm going to encounter people who are different to me that we're not going to maybe you think i ignored you i didn't ignore you perhaps i didn't see you or maybe somebody just told me some difficult news or something like that so we're imperfect people but i think that's part of the beauty of church it's part of why it's so precious we had a post-service picnic and we had sat around our table people who hardly even spoke english you know and it was i wouldn't pick that um for my own sort of benefit and enjoyment it was it was a bit challenging because we had to make an effort so so why aren't churches as friendly as they should be because humans are humans and let's all be gracious to one another and let's all help the church that we are part of if we're part of it then it's asking something of us um i don't think we need welcome teams in church i think all of us need to welcome one another and sometimes we'll do that better than other times yeah a very good point anything you want to throw in here tim yeah totally i i i love those ideas and you know my sort of fail-safe for all interaction with with other people is you know if i if i go expecting to give everything's an upgrade you know so if my if my heart is to encourage someone to love someone to give something to raise someone up to you know to to just um give from who i am and through what god's given to me even if i feel like i've got nothing to give it's just incredible how much god fills you in those moments i mean it's it's the topsy-turvy kingdom isn't it um that actually sometimes we can be recipients more when we're givers and and so yeah it's always going to break down if i go into church thinking if someone doesn't say hi to me or ask me why i'm frowning i'll be upset you you're on you're on for a losing streak like yeah and imagine if everyone did that tim imagine what sort of community we would create and i think we're all called to do that i remember like i i'm so into church that when we went on holiday uh around malaysia southeast asia we went to church as a family um and um i i think someone actually thought i was part of their welcome team because i've seen some folks who didn't look like they knew what they were doing um and got into a conversation with him and said oh we're going up there as well you could come with us i'll show you the way and uh they're like you've been part of this church long i'm like no i've just come to visit today on the holiday and uh i think that's a much healthier way of viewing um because of what it creates but also what it does in us and how it uh helps can i say as well um so when we go into an environment where we're with the church with that kind of attitude it spills it spills out into how we interact with people outside of those um those gatherings as as well had a brilliant interaction like we we were in la and i went surfing at this at this random beach and i'm out out the back and i'm surfing and this guy pounds up to me he's like hi my name's jerry and i'm like hi jerry my name's tim um and he says so what do you do so i just start to say i'm i'm part of the church of jesus like i love jesus and i'm a pastor anyway he just shouts to the beach hey sherry he's a believer jerry and sherry they were called it was brilliant um and and suddenly um it just gave us this this opportunity to interact and to pray together and to go into a different space of like of um and i think i think if we're if we're outward and we're we're wanting to speak encouragement into people's lives and you do that outside of the church and people are generally blown away because they just don't get it they don't they don't get it on a bus when someone says oh i really like the jacket you're wearing nice one you know normally sort of pulling people down so i love it i think it should overspill we do this thing in liverpool on the second sunday of the month we call it scat sunday and we don't really gather everyone into our building on the second sunday people meet in smaller community groups and they do litter picks and they have a local scout and put on board games for kids or they do all sorts of creative things together in community in a way that allows others to connect into it and people like what group is this why why would this group be doing this and people often comment on the interactions that they observe between people and it's not that we're special people it's the god has touched our lives in such a way that we want to include others into that and a few people have said to me when we did that when we stopped when we stopped meeting in the building on the second sunday of the month about five or six years ago oh isn't it shame that the church is closed uh that there's no church and of course we are out being the church in a myriad of places in a myriad of ways um being spiritual family together in a way that includes others into it um you know i i've heard people say things like oh we don't go to a church we're not part of a church because mum and dad and two kids just um have brunch together on a sunday morning and we maybe pray together now that is a good thing to do to have brunch as a family pray together maybe have a bible reading is that an expression of church well it could be or it couldn't be depending on things like does it help you to encounter jesus is it inclusive can others can you do you invite others in or is it just you hiding behind your uh what uh in your in your home is it a way of reaching out to people is does it call you to surrender does it ask anything of you because these are the things that i think we see when we read the bible particularly new testament as a narrative these are the things that we see taking place the dynamics between people in the text something is asked that's why i say it's an encounter and surrender what do you um and i i i i love the conversation because i think one of the big dangers of um being a christian is you turn into a consumer i you treat church like you treat netflix you turn it on you look for what gives you the highest rate of return you know you want the most entertainment and church is not there to entertain you um you can get very disappointed can't you with things like that but whereas if you stop looking at church for what you can get but rather what you but rather look for what you can give it takes on a very different dimension but john you've mentioned and bearing in mind i've got we've got about three or four minutes left you keep mentioning this surrendered life what does that mean to live a surrendered life well the reason i say it is because the confession of the first christians was jesus is lord and i think if we want to come up with a definition of what it means to be a christian a follower of jesus it's someone who says look my heart is like a throne and i'm gonna take myself off that throne and allow jesus to sit on that throne so i'm trying to live in a way that says jesus you are the king of my life and jesus i want to walk in your ways i want to live in obedience to you i think that is really what it means to be a christian it's less about did you pray a prayer in 1983 or about are you walking under the lordship of king jesus and i i think church is a gathering of such people who are doing that together in community um so lordship it's no fashion word isn't it but it's about making jesus king letting him reignable and i think that is really at the heart of what makes church church fascinating anything you want to throw in there but not just that if you've got a group of people doing that the the prayer of jesus um for unity amongst those who believe is possible so the the only possibility for unity is that jesus is the standard he's the plum line he's the king he's lord of our decisions he causes us um to shape the way we think and shape the way we act because of who he is and you know i was reading romans 8 today about about how he's predestined us to be conformed to his likeness we've been we've been called to be formed to the likeness of christ and so we all become like him as we uh as we observe and make him king and follow what he's calling us to do brilliant gentlemen thank you very much for that conversation i really enjoyed that to be fair i hardly did any talking which was which was quite nice and i'm fairly sure that people listening will go that's nice that you didn't do as much talking this week uh just leave it to john and tim because you guys were fantastic so i appreciate you doing that and for joining us tim what's happening next week but um we are we are definitely talking about forgiveness uh next week uh so um i apologize for the for the delay in the answer and ask for your forgiveness [Laughter] see what you did there like it yeah like it we've got um we've got jenny taylor talking about forgiveness and it's jenny's first time on crowd john do you just want to explain who jenny taylor is and why they should come listen to the talk next week well jenny is part of our senior leadership team at frontline she is a phenomenal bible teacher she is helping to lead us as a church and thinking about racial integration and equality in the church and she's championing that because again part of what it means to be church we reflect our future reality of heaven every tribe and nation and some so um she is a passionate gifted speaker who lives the life she really does yeah she does so do uh make sure you like and subscribe to the crowd church uh facebook page youtube page uh or website which you can see in this corner here uh go to uh crowd.church um in fact this week at some point you'll see a new website up and live so the new website is is there there will be errors and problems on it no doubt matt crew will find them all and point them out to me because matt's got a calling and a gifting to do that um but yeah check out the new website you can subscribe to the newsletter we'll email you once we can let you know what's coming up but if you subscribe to the feed if you like the facebook page then you'll get notifications whenever we put stuff out there especially if you hit the little bell thing and get those notifications because you're not going to want to miss journey next week jenny is going to be phenomenal crowd will be hosted by uh rach marshall and my beautiful wife sharon um so they're hosting crowd next week it is gonna be amazing talking about forgiveness what does the bible say about forgiveness and why you want to do it so do come and join in that will be fantastic in the meantime gentlemen it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on crowd this week we'll have to do this again uh to two wise sages uh from the church which has just been phenomenal so appreciate it guys uh thanks for tuning in to crowd we're gonna play a worship track now uh and when the worship track finishes the livestream will end but carry on in the comments say hi stick around and we will see you next week tim tara john terrar god bless you bye for now god of goodness anything less than your life giving true never satisfy my only in you too i have it all only in you jesus in you too have it all only in new jersey anything less than all of my heart do i have it all how great you are how great you are how great and beyond measure and beyond how brave do i in you only in you