What does the Bible say about Mental Health?

What does the Bible say about Mental Health

Well, good afternoon and welcome to Crowd Online Church. I am set beside the beautiful Frank Hargreaves. Frank, how you doing? Good, thank you. Good to have you. Thanks for joining. This is your first time ever hosting here at Crowd Church. How are we feeling? Good. Thanks. Excited. Good, good. Normally people just say nervous, but if you, let's go with excited. That's a much better proposition, right? Frank Hargreaves: Definitely. So welcome to, uh, I was gonna say Frontline Church. No. Welcome to Crowd Church. Uh, we are an online church. We're here on a quest to find out about this meaningful life that Jesus has for us. Whether it's your first time here with us, uh, whether it's your first time actually investigating anything with the Christian faith or whether you've been around for a little while, like Matt Crew, who is fervent in the comments, a warm welcome to you. You are welcome here. It's great to see you. Great that you are here. Do say hi in the comments. Uh, let us know where you are watching from. It's always great to connect with people around the world. So we are actually, I have to point out Frank, that we are actually live. Live, right. Yeah. As in this is not, this is not on live. Live, which is what we were doing over August. We were, we were doing the non-live, live streams because, uh, we took some time out. But actually today we are really, really live. So we will respond to your comments. It's good to be back, actually. Frank, have you had a good summer? I've Frank Hargreaves: had a great summer. Thank you. Yes. Very nice. Good, good. Yeah. I managed to take the whole of August off, so I too had a good summer. I feel very refreshed, but excited to be here. Glad to be back with you here at Crowd Church now. Frank, do you remember, uh, what is happening today? I do go ahead and tell the good folks what's going on. Frank Hargreaves: Okay. So we've been, uh, you've been asking, looking at the big questions of life and trying to find out what the Bible says about them. And particularly you've been looking in the last two sessions on what the Bible says about mental health. So last week we had a personal account of how, uh, someone who'd become very depressed, how she dealt with that and how she felt that God supported her through it. Mm-hmm. And today, uh, the lovely Lisa Orange is gonna talk specifically about what the Bible says about mental health. I believe. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Well, I couldn't have put it any better myself. Uh uh, it's uh, very true. We are talking today about mental health, all things about mental health. And Frank, it is fair to say. Uh, that, uh, you, well, let's tell everybody why you're here. You are, um, a member of the church. You are also a retired gp. Yes. You've done, you've, you look like you've done about five or 10 years service before you retired, but I assume it's a little bit more than that. Frank Hargreaves: Yeah. 35. Wow. Uh, so 35 years as a gp. You've retired, but you're also along with your wife, the beautiful Amanda Hargreaves. You are both trained counselors and help people with their mental health on a fairly regular basis. So yes, we thought, who better to get and come and help us with Crowd talk about this topic than you Good self. So thank you for being here. Very much appreciated. Uh, and we are in your hands, uh, as the expert, uh, in all of this. So, no question. I Yeah, I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. Uh, so yeah, we are gonna be talking about mental health. What does the Bible say about mental health? After Lisa's talk, we are gonna have a very brief time of worship and reflection. Join in if you can, uh, join along in the worship. Then after that, Frank, and I'll be back to answer your questions about mental health. We've had a stack come in already. Uh, we've got lots of questions based on Esther's talk from last week. Uh, and obviously we are gonna draw on Frank's wisdom as well. So just looking at the comments here. Uh, Nicholas says, I'm watching from my hot tub in the Shire. If you're gonna watch church online and get involved. Do it from a hot tub. Uh, why, why would you not? Right? Uh, so Matt, Crew, do you both means turn up in white? Is this a wedding? No, it's just the way it is. Matt. I didn't, it just, we didn't plan it just, although your tops not white, it's more of a gray, I think. Yes. Gray. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Uh, so good. Let's get that all outta the way. Right? We, without further ado, we'll jump straight into Lisa's talk. As Frank has said, we have been talking or talking, been working our way through. What does the Bible say about a series of topics? We've been asking? What does the Bible say about this and that? And today it is all about mental health. So here is the phenomenal Lisa Orange, and then Frank and I, we back after the worship with Conversation Street. Grab your notebooks, grab your pens, grab your cup of teas. Here's Lisa. Lisa: Hi, I am Lisa and I'm really excited to be answering this question today. Uh, I've worked in mental health in lots of different ways for most of my working life. I'm currently a therapist, so this is a subject that's very close to my heart, and I think the Bible has a lot to say about it. So what do we mean when we talk about mental health? Mental health is about our whole being, I think, not just our minds. It is about our thoughts, but it's also about our emotions and our bodies and how they all interconnect and influence one another. So our thoughts can impact on our feelings, and our feelings can impact on our thoughts, and our brain and nervous system responds. So if someone is having anxious thoughts and feelings or feels unsafe in a situation, then the body. Is also responding by either tensing up or having shallow breathing, sweating, stomach churning. And so that just gives a sense of how our whole beings are involved when it comes to mental health. So what is the difference then between good mental [00:12:00] health and not so good mental health? How, how do we work that out? We might describe good mental health as thinking and feeling good about ourselves and the world, and being in the world. Uh, we might think of it as feeling happy and content, having positive relationships in our lives. We might see poor mental health as the opposite of that, so that might be not feeling good about ourselves, low self-esteem, um, maybe, uh, feeling sad or having low mood, or being anxious or feeling isolated. Now in reality, mental health is more nuanced than that more complex because good mental health isn't about feeling good or happy about ourselves all the time. The reality is that we can have a whole range of feelings in any one day that's normal because [00:13:00] each day has different challenges, and each day we can feel frustrated or frustrated with ourselves, frustrated with other people. But it's when low mood, anxious feelings, negative thoughts about ourselves and the world become persistent and severe, that's when it can become extremely disabling and distressing and impactful on a person's life. But it's also the case that, uh, for many people there's a functioning with underlying depression and anxiety. So on the surface. Um, looking okay and, and living life, but inside really struggling with these difficult feelings. So actually mental health difficulties impact people in different ways to many varying degrees. One way we can think about and understand mental [00:14:00] health is through, um, terms of diagnosis like depression and anxiety, which I've already mentioned. Uh, but we might also think about, uh, schizophrenia or bipolar, or we might think about things like addiction and self-harm. These diagnosis and definitions they can be really important for, for people, for understanding and validating what is being experienced and for ensuring that the right help and support is in place. However, they can also, uh, bring discrimination and misunderstanding and stigma, which isn't good. And actually. What is behind each diagnosis and behavior are stories and experiences that people have been through, and usually very difficult experiences. And we might use then the word trauma to describe some of these. A trauma being a very stressful, distressing, or frightening experience. In my work, I'm always really interested to hear and understand people's stories, these stories and experiences, whether it's about childhood and growing up, uh, or something more recent. Our childhood experiences matter because this is where our self-esteem is formed. It's how we form how we feel about ourselves and the world around us. So if there is trauma or a lack of love and emotional support or both of those things, then the child can develop negative beliefs and feelings about themselves. And often the world really doesn't seem or feel like a safe place to be. How we think and feel about ourselves and the world is key to our mental wellbeing because it impacts on everything we do, uh, and how we approach life and how we feel in the world and around other people. So we can see how childhood trauma and poor attachment to caregivers can have a lasting effect on a person's mental health right through into adulthood. And so this is really important for, for us to understand when we are thinking about mental health. And then there's difficult and experiences and traumas that we experience as adults. They impact on our mental health too. And life has many challenges, bereavement, relationship problems, illness, isolation, and loneliness. Financial difficulties, oppression, discrimination, injustice, violence. And then there's big life changes like a change of job or getting married or going through the menopause. There's also external factors that, um, bring pressure into our lives, like worry, like social, uh, worry about, worry about climate change, social media. This all has an impact on our mental health, and we've just been through a global pandemic. We're not, we're not fully through it yet. And the World Health Organization says that this has caused a 25% increase globally of anxiety and depressive depression. One thing that's clear is that relationships matter when it comes to mental health. Difficult relationships can be a source of harm and impact negatively on mental health. And healthy and supportive and loving relationships can bring healing and. Research is actually showing that the stronger a person's social attachments and support, the less likely it is for trauma experiences to have a lasting impact. So what does the Bible have to say about all of this? As you might expect, the Bible doesn't use the phrase mental health, but it does talk about heart, soul, spirit, and mind. Each of these have unique but overlapping meanings and as a whole refer to our inner selves, our whole selves, and our emotions and our thinking. The Bible doesn't specifically talk about mental illness either, but it does talk about being brokenhearted and sorrow and despair of the heart, anguish and despair of the soul. It mentions suffering, mourning burdens, sadness, fear, cares, worries, and anxious thoughts. So the Bible is full of and reflect the reality of human pain. And suffering and mental health difficulties, if you want to put it that way, in its words and tells stories that speak of this too. And in the life of Jesus, we see, we see it, we see him rejected and abandoned and misunderstood, and we see him in anguish as he prepares to suffer and die. It feels like there's such a lot that I could say about the Bible and mental health that I don't have time to cover all here. Um, so I'm going to focus on a few areas. I'm going to focus on what the Bible tells us about who God is, how he feels about us, and how he responds to our mental health difficulties. And I'm going to talk about how we can connect with God when we are struggling with our mental health. And finally, I'm gonna talk about what the Bible says about the importance of relationships and community to support our mental health. So firstly, how does God feel about us and, and how does he want to engage with us in our mental health? We are deeply loved by God, and the Bible is like a megaphone for God's love, persistently telling us about his unfailing love and compassion. His love is described as being so deep, high, and long that we can never fully understand it. And then through Jesus, we are shown this love in how he lived and died for us so that we can have eternal life. This isn't a wishy-washy love. It has grit and substance, and it is an unconditional love. The Bible also tells us that we are deeply known and seen by God. He is not distant and distracted and cold. He's close to us, caring about every detail of our lives. In the book of Luke, Jesus says, what is the value of your soul to God? Could you be your worth? Be defined by any amount of money. God doesn't abandon or forget even the small sparrow he has made. How then could he forget or abandon you? What about the seemingly minor issues of your life? Do they matter to God? Of course they do. You never need to worry for you are more valuable to God than anything else in the world. So God loves us and we are valuable to him. And every detail of our lives matter. And this is important because as I've talked about earlier, we, what we need when we are growing up is to know and, and throughout our lives actually, is to know and feel that we are loved and we are connected with, and we are seen and understood and accepted for who we are. And we need that to form a healthy view of ourselves. And to feel good about ourselves. Also, I recently did two bits of online training. One was about suicide, working with suicide, and another was about working with shame. And interestingly, in each one of those, the presenters talked about love, along with compassion and connection being at the heart of what people needed and need. Child psychiatrist Edward Hallowell says, connection in the form of unconditional love is the single most important route of childhood happiness. And God loves us in this way, and even if we haven't experienced a deep and unconditional love, God loves us in this way and wants us to experience the height and depth and breadth of this love. The Bible also shows us that and tells us that God cares about our mental wellbeing. And here's just a few ex examples of how, what the Bible says about that. It says that he, that God is close to the broken hearted, that he cares about the anguish of our soul. He comforts us like a mother, comforts a child and is a source of hope that fills us with joy and peace. It also says that he wants to give us rest when it comes to our worries and our anxieties. We're invited to cast them on him. And I see that as like throwing them [00:23:00] onto him, throwing them away from us and onto him because he cares for us. We are told that we can give these worries to him in Prayer, and he will give us a peace of heart and mind that is beyond our understanding now. I believe this, and I've experienced it for myself. I've prayed about my worries and I've felt peace. I felt comforted by God in difficult times of my life. And there have also been times when I have felt persistently anxious, even when I've prayed and the anxiety has stayed, or God has felt distant and silent from me. And when I lost my dad about three and a half years ago, it was very suddenly I experienced a mix of these things. I experienced God's comfort and closeness, and I experienced times when he felt really distant and I questioned him and I wrestled with him about what had happened. And I grieved for my dad. And I think sometimes we can feel that it's not okay as Christians to be anxious or sad for too. And the Bible does encourage us to focus on praise and to praise God in difficult times and to be thankful in all circumstances. And there's a lot of good reason for that. One being that worship, praise, thankfulness, they are good for our mental health. When we praise God, we are speaking to our souls and reminding ourselves of who God is, that he's good, he's for us, he's with us. Even if we don't feel like it, we can trust him. Research also shows that thankfulness positively changes our brains, positively impacts our brains. So there's something really important about that. But [00:25:00] however, that's not the whole picture, because the Bible also talks a lot about something called lamenting. And we see it throughout the Bible, but particularly in the Psalms and the Psalms of this beautiful collection of songs and, uh, or poems that include worship and praise and declaration of who God is. But over a third of them are of lament. And here's an example of of one from Psalm 69. Deeper and deeper, I sink into the mare. I can't find a foothold. I'm deep in water, and the floods overwhelm me. I'm exhausted from crying for help. My throat is parched. My eyes are swollen with weeping, waiting for God to help me. And when we read the Psalms of Lament, we can see the writers express and feel and connect with their pain and emotions and doubts and feel fears and despair. They don't hide or pretend or cover up these raw feelings from God. And psychologically, um, we know that connecting with and expressing these gut level feelings has value, bottling them up, isn't good for us, and they can end up coming out in other ways that are often harmful to ourselves. But lamenting is about this, but it's also more than that. It's about moving towards God, uh, when sorrow tempts us to run away from him. Mark Roup talks about this in a book that he's written about, all about lamenting, and he says, lament can be defined as a loud cry, a howl, or a passionate expression of grief. However, in lament in the Bible, lament is more than sorrow or talking about sadness. It is more than walking through the stages of grief. Lament is a Prayer in pain that leads to. We know the tomb is empty and Jesus is alive, and yet we still experience pain and sorrow. Lament is the language for living between the poles of a hard life and trusting in God's sovereignty. In the Psalms, we see what is in the Psalms. We see what is a moving ebb and flow of anguish, praise, questioning, thankfulness, anger, despair, and declaration of who God is. And God wants us to be real with him. He wants us to draw close to him and find comfort in our difficulties, in our mental struggles. He cares for us. Finally, I want to come back to the importance of supportive relationships of community and church. In my own experience of loss and grief, we were supported, um, so well by family and friends in and outside of the church. People came alongside us. They were with us in our grief, not explaining it away or spiritualizing it, but simply bringing comfort and practical support and care. And this made all the difference. This helped us through a very difficult time, and God can bring and does bring direct comfort and healing. And the Bible tells us that he often brings it supernaturally and suddenly. But the Bible also shows us that God intends for comfort and healing to come through human relationships, to come through each other. And we see this, um, talked about in two Corinthians one where it says he, that's God always comes alongside us to comfort us in every suffering. So that we can come alongside those who are [00:29:00] being, who are in any painful trial, we can bring them this same comfort that God has poured out upon us. And in Romans 12, it says, love each other with genuine affection. And then it goes on to say, rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. So this comes back again to the importance of love and connection. We need other people in our lives. We need relationship and to know we matter. The church has a valuable role in addressing loneliness, offering reparative and healing relationships, being interested in people's stories and providing space to be honest about feelings without judgment. A place to lament the church does this well through social action and through simply, um, loving one another and being inclusive as we live our lives. What I'm talking about here isn't about the [00:30:00] church or Christians taking on the role of mental health professionals. It's coming about coming alongside that and supporting that. If someone has a serious physical illness, for example, they get appropriate medical treatment from qualified professionals. That person still needs love. Community Prayer for healing and spiritual support. And it's the same with mental health. If mental health difficulties are significant, significantly affecting your life, yes, speak to a friend or family member. Seek spiritual help and Prayer lament and get professional help, whether that's going to your GP or finding a therapist or a counselor and getting support from a mental health CHA charity. Getting help for any kind of mental health difficulty is not weak or failing at being a Christian. I want to finish by talking about another way we can connect with God when we are [00:31:00] struggling with our mental health, and that's through a meditation and stiller kind of Prayer, a waiting on God and receiving from him. There are some great apps out there and YouTube videos available that can guide you through meditations or prayers specifically around stress, some of them specifically around stress and anxiety. And I use a daily Prayer app that has a simple, regular Prayer that I like to Prayer each day. Pray each day. That helps me, and I'd just like to invite you to join me in praying it as, as I finish slowing my breathing and relinquishing my worries, I open my hands to pray. Come Holy Spirit to my mind. I receive your comfort. Come Holy Spirit to my heart, I receive your peace. Come Holy Spirit to my [00:32:00] soul, I receive the father's love for me. Amen.

So there you go. What does the Bible say? About mental health. Lisa, thank you so much for doing that talk and prepping that talk. Not a particularly easy topic to talk about because there's so much to talk about. And that was the impression that I got from what Lisa was saying there, Frank, that actually there's so many roots and ways that you can go down, uh, when looking at the Bible and mental health because it's such a massive topic now, right? Video: Yeah, absolutely. Frank Hargreaves: It, it's interesting, isn't it? I think the, this, the thing that really strikes me is, is that need to be loved and need to be accepted and, uh, the need for connection and Mm. Bible's full of that. Yeah. Kind of, kind of deals with that on a regular basis, that issue. But, um, I mean, one of the things, uh, Frank, I've been around a few years, right? And when I grew up, uh, in the eighties. No one talked about mental health, mental, I, I don't ever remember a conversation where someone talked about mental health, uh, or mental illness. And it seems to be something that over the last few years has become more and more to the forefront. Uh, am I making that up or is that actually the case? That it's becoming a bigger and bigger topic now? Frank Hargreaves: Well, like all of these things, it's always been there, but [00:38:00] society just hasn't talked about it. And I think, I think social media means that these things are much more accessible and people with blogs and things mean that it makes it more acceptable to talk about what's the truth and what's really going on in people's lives, doesn't it? So, and, and I think as humans, we feel. You know, on the one hand, social media says, well, you've got to have this life. And, you know, Facebook and other platforms, people only post what's wonderful. Um, and it's much more unusual for them to post about the reality of having had a really tough day with a child who's sick, who's not slept. And you fitting, like, you're not sure how much you can continue with, uh, with, with the life as it is at that, in that intensity. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think because it is spoken about, more people acknowledge more that actually, yeah, we're all the same. And we all have periods where these things really bother us. And for some people they're not as well, they don't have the same resources [00:39:00] for all sorts of reasons. And it, and it can become very difficult. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? And like you say, it's always been there. It's just now we're, we're a little bit more willing to talk about it, uh, and. Why do you think that is? Why, why do you think people are prepared to talk about something that for years was held in stigma and, and especially in the church, right? Mm-hmm. You, you wouldn't, you wouldn't talk about this stuff in church, um, because there was a stigma attached to it. There was a stigma. I don't, in some respects, there may still be and take, say, antidepressants. Um, so what, what do you think has changed? Frank Hargreaves: Um, I think there's more, there's more openness and more a, a willingness to be more honest. Clearly on any social media platform that varies, doesn't it? So some people are massively dishonest, but I think some really brave people aren't there. Um, the lady who was horribly disfigured by, um, an acid attack and her willingness to, [00:40:00] um, come on and talk about it and talk about her journey and those kind of things, um, and. I think, um, was it the footballer whose wife died and, um, he talked about his grief and his sadness. Yeah. Referred, Video: yeah. Frank Hargreaves: Yeah. And then more recently there's been all the stuff about child abuse, particularly among the footballers. And it's, I think it takes huge courage to do that, but then when it's out there, it allows other to be more open, doesn't it? Yeah. And you know, it's not, it's not that it's a foreign experience to most of us. I mean, obviously the more severe things are, but you know, we all have days when, or periods in our lives when it, it's really tough and it, it feels like it sucks and we wonder how we're gonna get through, don't we? Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, a fair play. I like that. You know, by talking about it, we not only help ourselves, but we're kind of leading the way for other people making it possible for them to talk, uh, and be more honest and open, which is, uh, which is, which is great actually. And being more honest with ourselves about these things. [00:41:00] Lisa started off the talk with a really interesting question. Um. What does good mental health look like? How would you answer that? Frank Hargreaves: Um, I think it's, uh, to me it's about balance and it's about developing resilience. So we all have time, you know, you were just sharing, you've had six hours on in a car on the motorway. I mean, I, you know, that can be good, but sometimes it can be really stressful. We all have days where life can be really tough, don't we? Mm-hmm. Um, part of life is really difficult, isn't it? Because we all know we're gonna lose the people we love. We're gonna die, and, you know, how do we, how do we cope with those things? So I think for me, good mental health is really, as Lisa said, it's about. Having access to good relationships. It's about having good physical health. Often good physical health leads helps you to maintain good mental health. It's probably about good self-awareness as well. I think about being aware of who you are, how you tick, um, the things that perhaps you're not so good at, the things where your strengths are, and learning how to deal with those without feeling an overwhelming sense of failure or an overwhelming sense of guilt when things go wrong. Accepting that there are things we can change, accepting. There are other things that are a lot more difficult to change, but that we still have hope. I think loss of hope, um, a life without hope is a life that leads to depression. I, that's kind of what I think. So we need hope, we need and we need resilience. Video: Mm-hmm. Hope and resilience are, there's sort of two power twins, aren't they, really? Yeah. And um, it's interesting actually because the most resilient people that I know. Tend to be the ones that have gone through the hardest times. It's, it's, it's like the, the difficulties, the trials or maybe even the traumas. They create a resilience, don't they? And um, and I was, I was reading, uh, over August, uh, during my sabbatical, uh, which was all part of my mental health routine. Let me tell you. Um, I, I was reading the book by Viktor Frankl called Man's Search for Meaning. I dunno if you've ever come across this book. I've heard of it. Yeah. He's, he was a, a, a in the, uh, concentration camps, uh, run by the Nazis. He was j uh, he was a Jewish guy and he was a psychologist, and he, he basically summarized the whole book. It was in the title, man Needs, meaning We Need, Do you know what I mean? And it's this, when we don't have that meaning, when we don't have that hope. That life becomes very complex. But with that meaning, with that hope human beings can bear the most incredible things and the most what, the most horrendous things, to be fair. And that was sort of what you came away with from that, you know, from that book that I might be, I might not be able to change external circumstances, but I can change internal thought patterns and processes and so on and so forth. Um, so it's interesting that you talk about resilience and hope, uh, together. I guess as a gp, right? You would've had many people coming through your, uh, a GP in case, uh, dear you, you dunno what that is. A general practitioner, a doctor, basically is what we call 'em here in the uk. Um, you would've had many patients come, uh, and I guess more and more patients, uh, towards the latter end of your years talking about mental health, right? Hmm. Frank Hargreaves: Yes. Probably. I mean, I people. Um, graduate towards those who they, uh, feel will get the service they're looking for. And, you know, I, they knew that I had an interest in mental health, so I probably maybe saw more than, uh, than some of my colleagues, but yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, just remind me of where you were going with that. Well, I was kind of curious, uh, the reason I was asking you this question, Frank, is obviously you've seen a lot of people, uh, in your surgery. Um, I, I know the answer to this question is [00:45:00] obvious, but I feel like I want to ask it, which is, um, is, are Christians immune from mental health issues? Frank Hargreaves: Yeah, I, I, I think it's a really good question because those who don't know God, um, say, you know, that it's kinda like hands on hips. Well call yourself a Christian, you should, you know, if God does all of this, you should be, you should, you shouldn't be going through this. And certainly as we, as we alluded to historically. Um, often as Christians, we'd almost feel a sense of shame if we were struggling, uh, with, uh, low mood, uh, with fatigue, with sadness, with guilt and shame. And yet it's evident, isn't it, from the Psalms, that's it's totally human experience. So, no, I don't think Christians are exempt from mental health issues. And in some ways I think we might even be more vulnerable because God calls us to an accountable relationship. So, you know, when we get it wrong, we, we get it wrong. And we, when we, when we self-examine and do an examination of conscience, we're aware of our own failings. But the hope for me. As a Christian is, is that God never lets me go. And his starting point is I can't earn my way into his presence. He first loved me, you know, he just loves me as high as the heavens are above the earth, so is his forgiveness, so is his love for me as far as he is from the West. So is his forgiveness of sin. And I think, um, forgiveness is a wonderful thing. We, we all, we all need to be forgiven. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that keeps me closer, God is that constant sense of, if I confess, if I tell my dad, I'm sorry my father God, I'm sorry if he gives me, what a wonderful thing. And not only does he give me, he promises to transform me and to change me and give me the power to be different. So I'm not stuck in Groundhog Day. Yeah. He's constantly changing me and I think that's a wonderful thing. Yeah, I agree. And it's one of the things that came through, uh, Esther's story last week when we talked about dealing with depression. And Esther shared her story with depression, and it was one of the things that sort of came through actually, was this, um, was this hope that ultimately things would change and things would be different. Um, that God didn't create her in that way, but in that she learned to trust God and developed a trust in God that has led to, um, a, a change in a, for the better of her mental health. Right. Um, which I find, uh, absolutely fascinating and it reminded me of that scripture is the scripture in Isaiah, uh, 26 verse three. It says, you keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you because he trusts in you. That's a wonderful promise, isn't it? But it's, um, this is where resilience comes in because it's not always. It's not always something you that just comes, you kind of have to fight for that, uh, and, and be in for the long haul. I dunno if that's what you found Frank, but that's certainly what I've found. Frank Hargreaves: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's interesting, isn't it, as we, you know, there's so many books out there, and as you dip into them, I you realize that some of the basis of how we are as Christians, it's written in with good mental health. So for instance, um, there's a guy called Dan Siegel who's, uh, written all sorts of books about adolescents and how to manage with adolescents and part of keeping well. Both for adolescents, but for us as humans, he says it's really important to have some time. That's your own, some self, some time for self-reflection. You just think, well, yes, you know, what are we called to do as Christians? We're, we're called to connect with God and to take time out of our day. And then if you think of how much of what St. Paul says, he spends a lot of time saying, look, don't dwell on things. Um, do acknowledge it, but don't dwell on it. But put on God's truth, put on. God's grace put on God's forgiveness, and you think, well, okay, there's the first CBT therapist obviously completely into it. Um, you know, and, and it's lovely when you get those kind of revelations of, uh, God's so far ahead of us, isn't he? Yeah, he is. No, we were having a conversation about this because, uh, one of the, the, the verses that meant a lot to me over the years is, um, be transformed by the rendering of your mind. Right? Romans 12, one, uh, and transformation then starts with change of thinking, right? It, it doesn't start with changing behavior, it doesn't start with. Uh, changing how I feel. It starts with changing how I think. Uh, and, uh, I, I was remarking about how I read a book that basically in essence said the same thing. Like, it was some huge revelation, you know, of the modern 21st century that actually we have to focus on thinking before we focus on emotions, before we focus on behaviors. And you're like, well, yeah, it's written there, bud. 2000 years ago, transformation starts when we, although Frank Hargreaves: I think, although I would say I, I begged to differ slightly. 'cause I think actually God deals with the heart first. Oh, okay. That's, yeah. So I'm there. But it, you know, God deals with the heart first, doesn't he? He talks about love. He talks about acceptance. He talks about forgiveness. And when those things are in place, we're then in a position because if you like, our heart is healed. Mm. When you're positioned then to focus on the putting on that truth and living that truth and, and being there, and certainly again, just talking about how science backs up what the Bible already knew. Um, in, in terms of how the brain is structured, often emotional will Trump thought. So, you know, you can from this. We're not, I'm not alone being in, in that things will happen and I'll make a habitual mistake or habitual emotional response. I think, oh, why does this always happen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, the root of that usually is something that's [00:51:00] quite emotional from when I was quite young, you know, when I was little and. Um, so the root is definitely there, but when I get that sorted out, I'm then more able then to kind of, you know, in my higher brain to look at it and think, oh, well, okay, there, I'm behaving like a 3-year-old when actually I'm 63, so, or 64 now. So, uh, maybe I ought to try and behave like a grownup and on a good day that works. Yeah, on a good day. That works. Uh, Dave, uh, here in the comments is very good point, Frank. So I think he, uh, he likes what you said there. He also said, I think if we would be shocked if we knew how many folks here in the UK alone, uh, have committed suicide during the time of this podcast or livestream. Uh, God help us, help us to help others. And that's an interesting point, isn't it? That actually is, uh, something that Lisa said about the church is actually, this is a place for you if you, if you struggle with mental health. And so as a Christian, I have to be aware of my mental health, but I also have to be aware of the mental health of [00:52:00] others, right? And get involved in that. Would that be a fair comment? Frank Hargreaves: Yeah, absolutely. And often it's the very simple things that make a difference to people talking about heart versus thought. You know, someone comes up and saying, how are you? You know? Mm-hmm. It's so easy, isn't it, in church, just to teach, speak to the people, you know. But if you are alone in church and someone new come, comes and just smiles and says, hello, how are you? Uh, how are you doing? Uh, with a, a genuine sense of empathy and compassion, it can make all the difference because you start to feel that connection. Mm-hmm. And as Lisa said, we need connection, don't we? Mm-hmm. Now so much about what we, what we see on social media, it's about connection, but actually social media only connects you so much, doesn't it? It's the, it's, yeah. Being in the same space is very powerful, isn't it? Yeah, it is. The simple things like a hug makes a massive difference, doesn't it? Yeah. And the, the hand on a shoulder and, and, and just saying, yeah, actually, how are you, uh, is an important thing. And I think as Christians, uh, in the modern world, it becomes very easy to become quite inward focused, right? Like, I've gotta think about my mental health. I've gotta think about, um, how my emotional health, how I'm responding, my, and so, and it becomes all about, and it, it's even true in our language, isn't it? That we talk a lot about God loving me, where scripture talks a lot about God loving the world. Uh, and sometimes we've, I I, I dunno about you. I find it quite hard to take these off and, and sort of look out towards others. Frank Hargreaves: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and I think it, it comes back to the, you know, what do we need to be good mental health? And part of that good mental health is having space and time for inner reflection and in a quiet, and I think it's often during those times, you, you get that sense of perspective, isn't it? Where you think, actually, this is to me, I need to be, I need to be taking my eyes off my navel and, uh, looking outwards a bit more. And, and we know, don't we, that. That very often when we, when we connect with others, when we do things with others, for others, help others, it makes us feel very different, doesn't it? Yeah. And when we're isolated and alone and we're only thinking ourselves, it's not good. And, and we know that, that all the psychologists say, you know, too much introspection, um, is bad for us. Mm-hmm. So we need to be outwardly focused. And you know, how many times have we had a scenario where we started to get really low and miserable and someone we've decided maybe to go for a run or someone's phone up and said, come on, let's go for a walk. And just doing something, the act of doing something different, it alters our perspective, it lifts us out, and it get, it allows us to break that entrenched thought and see the world in a, in a, in a larger way, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. Very much so. Very much so. Um, can I turn the tables slightly? Uh, or turn the tables, maybe change text slightly. One of the things that Lisa mentioned, and Esther talked about it, um, and I just wanna revisit it slightly, but it is quite a, it's quite a in depth topic. Um, and so parents, if you have young kids watching this do, do be warn. Um, they both mentioned this idea of suicide, suicidal thoughts, um, and Esther struggled with those, um, in her story to the point where she had to check herself into a e because she was scared of what was, what was actually gonna be the outcome. Um, any help, any thoughts from, uh, your experience from scripture, from people that may be watching who are involved in that? I just want to, I just want to connect with that a little bit if I can. Frank Hargreaves: Yeah. Uh, well, yes, I, I think it's a really big topic and, and I would not pretend to have all the answers, but I think a starting place fear plays a big part, doesn't it? In of often with people. And a starting point, I think is that actually it's not unnatural. And it's not unreasonable to think about, well, do I still want to be here? Is this a world that I want to live in? And, and, you know, I could say to you when you've had some very bleak times, I, I would be very surprised if you've not had the conversation with yourself about is it worth going on? Do I really want to live like this? Is this what I want? And I, and so I think my starting point would be to say to people, look, you're not alone. All of us at various times will have thoughts that will, there might not be, it might, it might not be that you are actively suicidal, but we have thoughts about, well, is it worth it? What's the point? Why should I go on? Mm-hmm. So first of all, I don't think that's unreasonable, and I don't think it's a sign that you're about to lose it for good. That's the first. And I think, um, I think the other thing is, um, Esther went and sought help. So I think if it's something that you. You're struggling to break outta. I think it is really important to get some help. And it's a bit like I said, you know, we, um, in a, in a lesser, a lesser setting of that might be you go for a run or you go, you go and do something. But often when you, when people become suicidal, [00:57:00] they become. Trapped in their own thought patterns and they can't see beyond. And sometimes just breaking outta that and talking with others and being with others can make a massive difference. Mm-hmm. Um, and obviously I think the other thing about suicide is sometimes it's made much worse if we're very tired, if we're not very well, if we've had a lot of alcohol. Uh, for those who use drugs, if they've, if they're, if they've used drugs so often, that's, if you like the degree of self-control slips Video: mm-hmm. Frank Hargreaves: When those are the things, start to play a part. So I think I would always say for anyone who's struggling with mood, be very careful about using alcohol, using weed, um, and other mind altering substances when you're vulnerable. Because it, it usually means it leads to more vulnerability, not less vulnerability. It has, it has the opposite effect really. Yeah, no, that's a fair comment. And what you talked about getting help, where would people go to, to get help? I mean, you mentioned a few resources earlier. Do you just wanna share those out? Frank Hargreaves: Yeah, I mean, I, I think there's the obvious things, like if you have a family that is a functioning family, you call on those who you love and you know, it was fantastic. And Esther's story, wasn't it, she phoned her mom and dad. Yeah. And they left the house at two o'clock in the morning, came and Neil, I'm a parent. You are a parent. Of course we would do that. So sometimes we forget to do the obvious, call those people who you love. Video: Mm-hmm. Frank Hargreaves: Call the friends who care. You know, we all have, most of us have soulmate friends. A soulmate friend is the one who's with you through thick and thin call them. They would be devastated if, if they, if they, if they knew you were suffering and you hadn't, you, they couldn't help. So I think remember to do the obvious, um, there's, uh, Samaritans, obviously, there's um, a men one that's particularly for, uh, men in Liverpool. And just the names escape me, calm. Calm. Yes. And that's particularly for men. Um, there's, uh, a resource called, um, um, uh, sanctuary Mental Health. Mm-hmm. Which is, uh, specifically it's, it's to help people in the, in the church who might be having mental health problems. Um, so I, there are actually lots of resources out there and, and you know, people, um, get cross and frustrated with Google, but if you put, you know, even if you Google suicide, getting help, feeling suicidal, Google will come up with a whole pile of resources that that would be available. And I think that's the key, is you, I think you've absolutely nailed on the head. If you're hitting a really rough, a really low point, get help, seek help do the obvious. And that's often we forget to do it, don't we? We kind of have an inner conversation. Say, say, well, no one will be able to help me. I'm not worth it. What's the point? Why should I bother it? Nothing will make any difference. And of course. None of that is true. It all makes a difference. And although we can think about suicide, I don't believe suicide is ever the right answer. No, no, I totally agree. Um, and there's always, there's always like coming back to what you said earlier, there's always hope. Uh, yes. And there's, there's always that hope. Um, and it's the, the central tenet of the Christian faith, there is a hope, an eternal hope on which we build. So, uh, no, very, very good point. One last thing, uh, Frank, going back to Lisa's talk, uh, which, uh, she, she use this phrase that church is a place to lament right now, I, I'm a bit of a marketeer, right? I do business, I do, I do marketing. If you were to say to me. Matt, you should have a place to Crowd Church. A place to lament as your tagline doesn't roll off the tongue. Really does. It doesn't sound that exciting. But actually as I wrote it down as she said it, 'cause I thought, well, goodness me, um, this is actually, she said, lament is a Prayer, uh, in pain that leads to trust. And again, I thought of Esther's story 'cause she talked about praying a lot in pain that [01:01:00] ultimately led to trust. Um, I, I dunno, I, that I thought was fantastic actually. And, um, I, I thought Oh, good on you, Lisa, for saying that because that's actually quite an important thing. Um, I, I dunno if you think the same, uh, with your experience, but I just wanted to just reemphasize the point there that Lisa said, Frank Hargreaves: yeah, I, I, I think there's something about lament, which is it's acknowledgement, isn't it? It's acknowledging that you're feeling horrible and it's expressing it. And sometimes we need to express it, um, very powerfully. No, we need to cry, we need to weep, we need to be angry. Uh, but we also need to know within that it's the safe place. 'cause God, God wants to know all about our emotions so it doesn't fa God if we're upset, if we're angry, if we cry or we shout. That's what he understands about us. And often in those moments, he, we can connect more powerfully with God. And I think there's a, there's a part of us as humans that we, we need to know the truth and, and that truth is right at the core of our being. And often in those times, people will say, somehow something changed within me. And I feel that's the Holy Spirit. I think the Holy Spirit, obviously he works with Christians, but I think he works for people who don't consciously know him and yet he will often rescue them and he will get them at that point where the lowest and and hold them until they can. If you like. They're coming down and they turn the corner and they start to come up. He gets 'em when they're at rock bottom and holds them until they start to come up. So, yeah, I think, I think lamenting, uh, being real, acknowledging, expressing is really, really important. And you can, I mean, you've mentioned this and Lisa did. You can do all of that to God in your Prayer times, right? God, God doesn't need a sanctified Prayer. He doesn't need you to, to, to watch your Ps and Qs and, and all that sort of stuff. He, he's quite happy that you shout, you scream, you, you holler and, and be real, right? Frank Hargreaves: Yes, absolutely. He wants reality actually. Yeah. Isn't he? You know, he said, he said in the temple, didn't he? I see all these people making wonderful prayers and was it the widow who said, Lord, please accept my gift as she put in a quarter of a penny. Yeah, but he was totally thrilled with that. And a humbleness, you know? Yeah. So God wants reality. He doesn't, he's not bothered about big words. Is it? No, he is not, and he is not bothered about those kind of traditions either. He says, your traditions have made the word of God of no effect. And it's that kind of, we become so captivated in the tradition that we forget actually God is a God of relationship and we can be totally real with him as a result, you know? And, and, and work with that. Um, uh, I think what we'll do is we'll end Conversation Street there. I'm aware of time. Thank you for your comments. Uh, Nicola just going through them here. Uh, Dave said, listening to Lisa, I'm reminded of psalm hundred 47 verse three. He heals a broken hearted and binds up their wounds, uh, which very true testimony of God. Uh, Nicola said she got a dog a few weeks ago, uh, and the dog has helped her to do so much more. In fact, has been able to reduce the antidepressants with the help, uh, of her doctor. And that's quite an interesting thing, isn't it? That a Frank Hargreaves: very powerful. Is that something actually you've seen a lot, people were sort of getting pets and, and, and it brings that companionship maybe that we're, we're looking for. Frank Hargreaves: Yeah, I think it, it's alter too focused, doesn't it? It's, it's, um, a dog responds to love without, without demanding a lot. So for someone who's, who's got very into themselves, it, the dog or a pet demands that they, they, they leave that part of them and they give parts of themselves to the pet. It demands that they have to go out of the house. Great. And often when they're walking, you know, who do you meet when you walk in your dog? Well, the dog. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and dog walkers are a very friendly bunch, aren't they? And all of a sudden you get connection thatwasn't there. So I think it's fabulous. And also I think the need, there are connections to nature, you know, where do you walk your dog? Often it's in the park, isn't it? Or in the countryside. And you've got connection to nature as well. Um, and that's how we designed as humans, isn't it? We need that connection. Yeah, totally. It's, I love this because not only are we talking about verses from the Bible, but we're, God is a hugely practical God, isn't he? And uh, giving us animals actually helps our mental wellbeing. I think it's quite an important thing. Uh, Matt Crew says, um, you obviously mentioned you were 64, Frank, 'cause he said, I've got when I'm 64 stuck in my head now. Yeah. Uh, but he also said, if you're struggling to, uh, reach out to a health professional, get in contact with charities like Samaritan or Mind, you are not alone. And I think that's a good place to end because you're not alone. Um, no, absolutely not. Uh, not alone at all. And God never leaves us, nor for sexes. Um, it does say that in scripture. Frank, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, been Video: Thank you. [01:06:00] No, it's been brilliant. Uh, let me tell the good folks what is gonna happen next week. So, uh, next week on Crowd Church, we are asking what does the Bible say about itself? It will be the last for now 'cause we may revisit this. Uh, the last, what does the Bible say about topic? Next week, the week after that, we are starting a brand new series called Origin, where we look at the Origins of the Christian faith, how it all began. Starting off with the Gospel of John. Quickly going through the story of Jesus and deep diving into a book called Acts, which shows what happens with the early church. It's gonna be phenomenal. Uh, if you are a member of Frontline. Or you're a member of Crowd Church, uh, and you would like one of these, do let us know. It's called devotions. Um, and it's basically a journey through John's Gospel and Acts, which we'll be using, uh, in our conversations. Don't worry if you don't have one, 'cause we're gonna put it all on social media. That's just the way we rock and roll here at Crowd. Uh, but if you would like one, do get in touch and let us know. We'll quite happily, [01:07:00] uh, arrange for one of those to go out to you. Um, yeah, just let us know. So Matt said here, what's happening next week? I've answered that question, Matt. Yes, I have. Uh, so we've got Prince Thomas asking what does the Bible say about itself? Do come and join us for that 6:00 PM here in the uk. Uh, that's 1:00 PM Eastern. We will be live streaming out. Um, I would love to tell you who's hosting, but I genuinely can't remember. That's how prepared I am on my first week back after four weeks. Uh, r and r. Uh, so. We are gonna end the live stream. The way we do that is we are just gonna play some worship music, uh, sing along if you'd like to carry on the conversations, uh, in the comments if you'd like to join in there. Uh, but thank you so much for being with us. Uh, it's been an absolute pleasure, Frank, also to chat with you about this. Really appreciate you coming and sharing your insights and thoughts. It goes without saying, uh, let me put the website on the screen here. Uh, if you, uh, are struggling or would like to reach out to somebody, I just wanna connect with somebody. You can obviously reach out to us here at Crowd Church, crowd.church is our website. Or you can find us on social media at Crowd Church and you can message us on there. We would love to hear from you. Uh, so I think I've covered everything, Frank. So, uh, any final words from you? My good sir. Frank Hargreaves: Um, no, it's just been good to be here and, um, remember we need to be resilient and we need to maintain our hope. That's, that's where it comes from. Good mental health. Absolutely. Fair play. And on that, we're gonna end the live stream. Thank you so much for joining us. Uh, been a real privilege. Bye for now. See you next week. God bless.