What Does The Bible Say About Racism?

What does the Bible say about Racism_ Matt: [00:00:00] Well, good evening now. Welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Matt Edmundson. Uh, and beside me is, uh, a, a beautiful man called Tony Edin, who has been a friend of mine since Noah was around. Uh, we, um, I think we founded Liverpool University, didn't we Tony? Tony: It's been a long time anyway. Matt: Yes, it's been a very long time. Uh, so welcome to Crowd Church. First time Tony has hosted, uh, Crowd with us. So, uh, it's not the first time you've appeared on Crowd, but it is the first time you have hosted Crowd. So are you feeling nervous, bud? Tony: No, I've been looking forward to this. It's great to be able to talk a bit about race and racism, isn't it? Matt: Yeah, yeah. We're gonna get into all that. We pick a nice light topic, uh, and thought, well, why not, right? So, um, but it's a needed conversation, a needful conversation. So today we are looking at what does the Bible say about racism. We are getting [00:01:00] into all of that today. We've got it all coming up. If this is your first time with us, warm, welcome to you. Uh, we are an online church for those who might not see the point of church. We just look for the answers of how to live a meaningful life, which is simply found in Jesus. Uh, and we're gonna get into all of that today around the topic of race and racism. Um, and yeah, we're gonna be live streaming for. About an hour. Uh, but b aim sort of finish around 7:00 PM UK time. It's 6:00 PM at the moment, so it's gonna last about 45 minutes to an hour, somewhere around there. I always say that, Tony, it's gonna last about 45 minutes to an hour, and it's always an hour, that's all. Yeah. Tony: You just know that's how church is, right? Yeah, Matt: yeah, yeah. I don't know if we've ever done it in 45 minutes. That's, uh, I need to change that, um, that little countdown timer intro there where it says 45 minutes to an hour. So welcome to you if you are with us, if you're new, if you've been around for a while, say hi in the comments, let us know you are watching. Uh, it'd be great to hear from you. I see we've got Nicola, uh, in the comments we've got [00:02:00] Matt, uh, who else? We got Sharon's in the comments. John is moderating the comments tonight, again on Facebook and YouTube. So say hi to John. Be kind to John. It'd be great to, uh, be great to do that way. And it really just be nice to him. Just be nice. Um. So, yeah, tone. We have got this whole conversation about racism today. Um, and just explain to the good folks who are watching this, kind of who you are, bit about, you know, a bit about your background, why you are here. You've got about 30 seconds. Go. Tony: Okay. So I am Tony Iin. I am half, uh, Bangladeshi, half Scottish. Uh, what a mix. I grew up on a large South London council estate, uh, and today I, pastor Hamlets community church in East London. Uh, and I just love what I do. Spend a lot of my time helping people think through issues around mission, really passionate about intercultural church. Uh, love to watch [00:03:00] Liverpool play football when I get the opportunity. And, uh, I'm actually much older than I look. Matt: I dunno, you're looking pretty old. I'm not gonna lie. Um, but the, actually, no. And, uh, yeah, Tony and I met, like I said, at uni, we've been friends for 30 years. Uh, Tony was best man at my wedding. Uh, I was best man at his wedding. So we go back along. Way. So when we were thinking about what does the Bible say about racism, I thought, Tony, it would be great to do this conversation. So, uh, we are gonna get into the talk. We're gonna play the talk intro. There's a scripture read, and Tony's gonna do a talk, which you recorded last week. Uh, Tony. Um, so if you're watching, it's not like you just suddenly change his clothes and location. It's a prerecorded talk. I'm like Superman, right? I just this one off. Tony: Yeah. Matt: Yeah. That's how it goes. Dun. Uh, so we're gonna do that talk, uh, and then we'll have a brief time of what we call worship and [00:04:00] reflection. I'll explain a bit about that, uh, in about 25 minutes or so. Then we're gonna get into Conversation Street. So Tony and I are gonna be back. We're gonna talk, um, through some of the things he mentioned. In his talk on racism. We're gonna go through your questions. We've got questions which have come in already as we go through it. Uh, as we go through this conversation, please feel free to write any questions that you have in the comments. Uh, and if we can, and if they're appropriate, we'll obviously get to them in Conversation Street. So that's what's coming up. So without further ado, here's my very good friend Tony, talking about racism.[00:05:00] Remember that at that time you were separated from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus, you who were once far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made [00:06:00] the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility by setting aside in his flesh, the law with its commands and its regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace. And in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to, to you who were far away and peace to those who were near for through him. We both have access to the Father by one spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household, build on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus [00:07:00] himself as the chief cornerstone in him. The whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord and in Him. You too are being built together and becoming a dwelling place in which God lives by his spirit. Tony: Good afternoon. It's great to be able to talk with you today, and I want us to be talking today about racism. As you all have heard from the, uh, passage of the Bible that's been read, I believe the Bible has a lot to say about racism, but also about how people can work together. How in Jesus people of different cultures can be brought together. Jesus is the one [00:08:00] that reconciles us, and the church ought to be a place where racism shouldn't really exist, but unfortunately, sadly, it does in too many places. 10 30 on Sunday morning as people gather for church, can be one of the most segregated times of the week. And that really troubles my heart. But also the church of Jesus can be an incredible place where people from different races and cultures, different backgrounds, different life experiences come together and share life together as part of a vibrant and intercultural community. I think about my experiences of traveling in places that have experienced significant racism and been maed by it, and experiences of being in Balkan countries and seeing churches, building reconciliation across ethnic lines [00:09:00] when no one else is. It's important that we do talk about racism. I dunno whether hearing a sermon on it, what that makes you think about as we approach the topic. For some of us, it may fill us with dread. For others of us, we might think, great, finally, someone in church is gonna talk about it. But we have to because it's such an important thing and it affects so much of the world in which we live. You know, if you say, oh, I don't really see race, well that's a really privileged position to be in. But the reality for most of us is that race and racism has played a huge part in our experience of life. It's a big issue, particularly for us here in the UK because in one sense we are a very [00:10:00] diverse culture, a very diverse society. We've got people from all kinds of backgrounds, very, uh, different ethnicities. Where I'm from in Tao Hamlets in East London, it's incredibly racially diverse and yet, and it's often celebrated for that. And yet somehow. Actually that just skims the surface of it, because the reality is those communities are often just existing side by side without any real interaction. And so sometimes our idea of how do we deal with racism, can't we all just get on actually just resorts down to people living separated lives? And I believe the Bible presents a compelling, a beautiful, a life changing picture of the fact that the church can be a place where people come together and share life and life in all of its fullness. The [00:11:00] reality is for most of us, we see elements of racism in so much, so many different aspects of our lives. Maybe not the, uh, overt racism of the Kku Klux Klan. But the subtle kind of racism, the kind of, uh, internalized prejudice or decision making that doesn't really wear the tag racist, but actually is often coming from that kind of place. I believe as a church leader, my heart is to grow vibrant intercultural church where people really cross barriers. I guess part of this, I want to be open. I, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm passionate about racism because of my background. I'm half Bangladeshi, half Scottish, a hundred percent English, and, uh, racism has played a part in my life. So whoever you are, I think the Bible [00:12:00] has some relevant things to say. In this passage that was read out earlier from Ephesians, we see the way in which Jesus not only reconciles us to God, he doesn't just break the dividing wall between us and God, but actually he breaks the dividing wall between different races, between different ethnicities. The idea is that Jesus creates one new creation, humanity in Jesus. The dividing wall between man and God is broken, but also between different races as well. There's a, a really interesting example of racism in the uh, old Testament in numbers chapter 12. And, uh, we read there that it says there that Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married for. He had married a Cushite woman, and [00:13:00] they said, has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us as well? And the Lord heard it. Now, the man, Moses was very humble, more than any man who was on the face of the Earth. So the anger of the Lord burned against them and he departed. But when the cloud had withdrawn from the tent, behold Miriam was lepers as white as snow. It's really interesting there. It seems like Moses, a lot of the difficulty that he was facing in the criticism was on account of his wife who was cushite. That meant it's highly, highly likely that she was black. And in fact, Cushite people were famed for their dark skin. And it seems like somewhere along the line what is driving these people's criticism of Moses isn't just his decisions as a leader, but actually it's the fact that he was married to a black woman.[00:14:00] Really interestingly, God judges their actions and part of it is that this one woman who criticized actually becomes super white in leprosy and what's with a skin disease. And what's interesting about that is almost like God is saying, if that's how you want play it, we see examples of racism in the Bible and we see that God is a God who confronts it. In Ephesians chapter two, as we, uh, as was read earlier, we see that God in Jesus. Deals with what divides people from one another. Verse 13 says, but now in Christ Jesus, you who are once far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace. Who has made the two groups one and who [00:15:00] has destroyed the barrier? The dividing wall of hostility. What that's speaking about is the difference that was between, uh, Jews and Gentiles, Jews and non-Jews, and we see that Jesus tackles that sense of division in the Old Testament. In the temple, we see that people were divided from one another. The Holy of Holies was curtained off and the priest could only go once a year. We see in the outer courts and the courts of priests, people are di priests divided from people, men divided from women. The court of the Gentiles kept the, the Gentiles from the Jews, people divided and it says thereby, setting aside in his flesh, the law with its commands and regulations, his purpose, and this is the real key point, was to create in himself one new [00:16:00] humanity out of the two, thus making peace. In other words, Jesus breaks through his own sacrifice through dying on a cross. Jesus breaks what divides people from each other. One new creation, humanity. And I believe that ultimately, how do we deal with racism? We realize that each of us have tendencies towards it. Racism isn't just a problem for one race. There's something about human nature that's inherently selfish and inherently causes us to think more about ourselves than we should and less of others than we should. And it's part of that dehumanizing kind of way we are. That actually is what is at the heart of racism, and Jesus wants and for all on the cross defeats it. Why? Because as we are [00:17:00] made new, as in Jesus, God forgives our sin and makes us new from the inside out, not perfect, but forgiven. He deals with the problem of our sin, which divides us from God, but also makes it possible to deal with our sin, which divides us from each other. Those who were far off. Have been brought near. That means for me as somebody who's not a, uh, not a Jew by background. Actually, one of the amazing things about the cross is that I am included in God's blessing that he had previously, was previously only on his people, the Jews. When we think of others, do we think of ourselves more highly than we should? Do we think of others lesser than we should? Do? We think of the world [00:18:00] in terms of me and my people and other people. Jesus breaks the dividing wall in Jesus. We have the prototype of all reconciliation. But it's only ultimately through Jesus. And I believe that on the back of that, the church is a visible sign. It declares the wisdom of God that God can take people who wouldn't even sit round a table. If you imagine the, the, uh, the, the divided culture that the New Testament was written into where Jews and Gentiles wouldn't eat at the same table, they wouldn't go to one another's houses. And in the midst of that, God calls a people from both of those cultures. God calls Jew and Gentile together. The truth of the New Testament is that God called slaves and free people together [00:19:00] saying that the, in Christ, they are one another. Dividing wall broken. God calls men and women together. Old and young, rich and poor God is the one who breaks walls That divide and the church of Jesus ought to be a visible sign. In two Corinthians five, verse 17, we read, if anyone is in Christ, he's a new creation. The old things have passed and all things have come new. All of these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. So that means that as Christians, we don't get to live divided lives. We don't get to build segregated communities. We shouldn't have any form or any part in racism. We shouldn't be spending our [00:20:00] lives, uh, erecting walls, which keep people apart. Actually, our job as Christians. Is to be ministers of reconciliation. That means that because we've been, uh, made acceptable to God through what Jesus has done, because we've been brought back to him because the dividing wall between us and God is broken. God wants to break down dividing walls between us as people, and that's part of the church's job to say that we have been made, we have been given the possibility to be agents of change. In verse 16 of that passage says, we recognize no one then according to the flesh. In other words, we are not judging by the outward appearances. I love. In our local church, there's just the rich mix of cultures, of backgrounds, young and old, rich and [00:21:00] poor, different nationalities, different ethnicities, uh, different social classes. And it forces me to confront the prejudice of my own heart, because the reality is each of us has prejudice, and I wanna say that whoever you are, I just wanna ask you, what are the prejudices in your lives? What are the things that keep you divided from others? What are the things that cause you to think too much of yourself, your own culture, your own race? And to think lesser of other cultures, lesser of other races, to see them as inferior because the gospel, the good news of Jesus confronts that. Let's not pretend that racism is something others have to deal with. And as Christians, we should be at the forefront of racial reconciliation. That means owning, accepting, confessing our [00:22:00] sin where we've done wrong. It means that we don't just look at racism as the problem of somebody else, but we recognize where there are elements of thinking like that in our lives. We ask for God's forgiveness. We seek to change and we seek forgiveness from others in your life. I want to say that the work of God is that he brings change. He can change the things about us that actually are what generates racism and prejudice in our life. And I think that's really, really important. 'cause our culture and our world, window dresses, we wanna deal with the symptoms of racism. We want to deal, we want to have an equality equal society, and that's brilliant. But unless we drill down to the causes, which is the human heart will never change [00:23:00] it. We will never change problems of racism by just barking at others to change. I think it's beholden on each of us to say, yes, we want to affect structural change. Yes, we want an equal society. Yes, social campaigning is important, but also each of us are gonna be brave enough to look into our own hearts and see where there is darkness. So how can we work some of this out practically? Well, firstly, I think on a very, very basic way, we can choose to be and spend time with people who are different to ourselves. In our church, we have a culture where we specifically ask of our leaders that they be people who are intentionally building friendships and sharing life with people of different cultures. I think there's something dehumanizing about a church in a [00:24:00] multicultural area like London or Liverpool if people are living monocultural lives. And the way we begin to address some of that change is we intentionally share life with people who are different. We intentionally build friendships. We intentionally invite, we intentionally get to know, we want to, uh, really be people who are proactive in living the change we want to see, it means that we choose not to judge people based on their race or ethnicity. And that means even in the subtle things, and sometimes it is subtle, you know, for some of us, if we saw a black person in scrubs in hospital. We'd assume that they're an orderly or a nurse rather than the surgeon. That's a form of racism [00:25:00] right there. Or we would assume that people act in a certain way because of our prejudices, which exist. And what we have to do is we have to choose as far as is possible not to judge people or to predict their actions based on their race or ethnicity. As a church, it means we pursue what unites us and what not. What divides us, it means that if there are things that we do that we know make it difficult for other people of other cultures to share life with us, then we try to address those issues. In the Bible, in in Romans, there's this principle of pursuing what makes for building up one another. And Paul says basically, if what you eat or drink or how you view, uh, what days are special is causing others to stumble, then actually back off it [00:26:00] because you don't want to be responsible for causing division. And in a very real sense, if we're building intentionally as an intercultural community, that means we are prepared to look at what are my behaviors that cause issues. And then lastly, we choose not to assume that we are better than others or that our way is right on the live stream. We're gonna just be able to unpack some of this and go through and, and really talk this stuff through. And it's so important that we do, because actually I think that that inward work of looking at what are my assumption. What are my prejudices? What are the things and attitudes and actions that pervade my life? That's the things we want to talk about because I think if we look to live and be change in our own lives, then I think we start to see change.[00:27:00] Ephesians to close. In Ephesians two talks about inhumanity in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others. The good news of Jesus confronts our selfishness and the good news of Jesus, challenges that selfishness and challenges us to a life in one sense of self-denial that sees others as better than ourselves and looks to live and esteem others. So I want to challenge you. What would God put his finger on? In your life. I look forward to chatting with some of you in just a moment. God bless you. Matt: Wow. Thanks, Tony. I, I dunno what you thought about that talk. I mean, it's a vital conversation, isn't it? This whole conversation about racism. And so really appreciate Tony doing that talk. Tony and [00:28:00] I will be back in a few minutes time to carry on the conversation about racism. So if you've been watching, uh, his talk and have questions, write 'em in the comments. If you have your own thoughts, uh, that you wanna share, write 'em in the comments. We would love to hear them. Uh, and like I say, Tony and I will talk about those in just a few minutes. But before we do, we're gonna have a time of worship and reflection. So basically what that means is I'm gonna play, uh, a worship song, which John Farrington has recorded for us. It's called Reckless Love. Uh, and it just carries on talking about the things that Tony mentioned about how, how Christ has reconciled things in himself and how it was all motivated by love, uh, and actually. It's a really good point, isn't it, in terms of what motivates us as people. Is it love or is it selfishness? Uh, and love is never at the root of racism. It just isn't. So this is, uh, called reckless love. If you've not been to church before, if you're not used to singing along with worship songs, just read the words, let them minister to you. Just think about them, uh, and think about what Tony said. [00:29:00] Uh, but if you can, and if it's safe to do so, join along with the worship, and then Tony and I will be here in just a few minutes. Video: Before I spoke Word, you were singing over me. You have been so, so good to me. Before I took a breath, you breathed your life in me.[00:30:00] You have been so, so kind to me. Oh, the overwhelming reckless love of God. Oh, it chases me down. Fights till I'm found, leaves the 99. I couldn't earn it. I don't deserve it. Still you give yourself away. Oh, reckless Love of God.[00:31:00] When I was your folk steal your love fought for me. You have been so, so good to when I felt no worth. You paid it all for me. You have been so, so kind to me. Love of[00:32:00] down. I couldn't, I don't it still you. There's no shadow. You won't light up mountain. You won't climb up coming after me. [00:33:00] There's no wall you won't kick down. Lie you won't tear down coming after me. There's no shadow. You won't light up mounts and you won't climb up coming after me. There's no you won't kick down. Lie you won't. The no shadow, you won't light up mountain. You won't climb up coming. The snow, you won't kick down. You won't tear coming after me. The snow shadow you won't light up. Mountain. You won't climb up coming after me.[00:34:00] The snow you won't kick down. Lie you won't tear down. Coming after overwhelming, reckless love of God down I found. I don't deserve it. You give yourself love of God.[00:35:00] Matt: So welcome back to, uh. Uh, Tony, uh, we're in Conversation Street now, Tony, and, uh, we're following a little worship sesh there. Uh, and we are gonna get into all your questions and comments about racism. So if you have any and you're on the live stream, do write them in the comments. We will try and get them. I've got a whole bunch of questions, which we've already got in, and I've got a whole bunch of questions myself. So, uh, I think, um, Tony, first, thanks for putting that talk together. Uh, I kind of get the feeling that this is not the first time you've talked about racism. Would that be correct? Tony: Yeah, I mean, I think it's something we probably haven't talked as much as we should do about this in church is generally, I think, you know, a couple years [00:36:00] ago when the Black Lives Matter thing came to the fore again, that, that, that the, the moment after George Floyd and, uh. It provokes some discussions that were long overdue. Mm. And, um, but in places they were, they were just a, a response in the moment and then back to radio silence and yeah. It's kind of disappointing. Yeah. Matt: Yeah. It's interesting. And I think why, well, let me ask you a question. Why do you think radio silence is the default? Why do we, why do we talk about it for a bit and then just sort of go quiet again? Tony: I think 'cause sometimes we are not sure what to say. Yeah. Or, or we're afraid of saying the wrong thing. Yeah. Um, it's, I mean, you know, in, in our day and age, you can get into a lot of trouble really quickly by saying the wrong thing. Video: Yeah. You, and I Tony: think a lot of people are genuinely frightened. Mm-hmm. Um, I think sometimes as well, we don't know how [00:37:00] to have a conversation with integrity. Um, I think we, we've lost. Some of the ability to disagree well, or talk about difficult things. But I think sometimes if we are aware that our structures don't reflect maybe a good, uh, a good sense of, of diversity in terms of race, then if we start that, that conversation, people will say, well, what do your structures look like? And so I think it's sometimes people just really, they don't know where to start. Um, and yeah, and, and other times we don't want to offend somebody, um, or we realize that our structures have been built in wrong places and to begin to unpick that is gonna be painful. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, so yeah, I think it, I think it's a, it's a hard place to start sometimes. Matt: Yeah. No, and I, I can empathize with that because I [00:38:00] like, like, you know, I. Uh, if you're listening to the podcasting, you can't see me. I would classify myself as white. I'm a white, uh, man. And so I've, I think you're right. I think we've not talked about it enough, and I think the thing that I've found over the last few years is that a lot of the conversations have, have been quite challenging. Some of them, um, have, have, have been quite harsh from. From everybody. Uh, and the thing that I liked about your talk in everything that you were talking about is actually when you bring it back to the gospel, when you bring it back to Jesus, which is something I feel very comfortable talking about. Yeah. Um, Video: wouldn't you? Matt: Yeah. You really would. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that there's no, there's none of this to be found in Jesus, this whole idea of no division about being one, um, which you, you brought it back to. So I, I get that. It's a hard conversation to have, but I [00:39:00] also get that it's a needed conversation to have. Um, you mentioned actually before we were on air, a book called, uh, let's Talk What it called. Let's Talk About Race. We, Tony: we, we need to Talk about Race by Ben Lindsay. It's a great place to start. And, and what's good about it is its context is the, the UK church. Matt: Mm. Tony: Um, and, and it, it's a, it's a really helpful reflection. On, um, on experiences of black people in church. It's, it's a great place to start. I, I'd recommend it. Matt: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. And there's another book out called God Is Not a White Man, uh, by Chiney McDonald. And I know Chiney, if you're a regular to the, to, to Crowd, you'll know that, um, part of the church we're connects to is called Frontline. I know she's coming to Frontline soon. Um, so I'm looking forward to that as well. So she wrote that book, God Is Not a White Man, which actually is quite an arresting title for a book when you Do, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, it kind of jaws you in the face and you kind of go, well, actually that's quite good because God is [00:40:00] not white and, uh, God is not a man. And, and so, um, the irony being, of course, Jesus was definitely not white. I mean, he, the, the guy operated in the Middle East, right. So, yeah. Tony: And I, I think even just that assumption that we, we, our. In, in the West, our expectations, our assumptions on, on Jesus, on, on who God is, has come from a place that's profoundly unhelpful. Mm. And, um, and, and you just, you know, you say something like that and, you know, some people will really react to it as if you are saying something heretical. Yeah. And, um, I think that shows how entrenched our wrong thinking can be. Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right, bud. I think it's a fascinating one, an absolute fascinating one. You mentioned this phrase at the start, um, that your passion is for an intercultural church. Just explain what you mean by [00:41:00] this phrase, intercultural. Tony: Yeah. And, and that's a, that's a really, a really useful distinction. So I think we live in a world that values diversity. It wants diversity, and it doesn't know how to, how to do it. So it's a great goal. Uh, it's a great aspiration, but actually what we often settle for is a form of multiculturalism. Um, and, and again, people mean different things by those terms, but the, the way it works out is essentially people living alongside each other, but very separate lives. So you have different communities. So where I am in East London, we have the Bengali community, Somali community, uh, working class, white East End Community, Canary Wharf type city type people, and an artist type community. And there's really little overlap meaningfully between those, those, those communities. And it's sad because it just says, [00:42:00] oh my, I'm gonna have a really low expectation. That it's separate development and we'll try not to quarrel. Yeah. And then we celebrate that as diversity. And when we talk about an intercultural church, we're talking about a church where actually we are respectful of, we are learning, we are in dialogue from one another and we're growing together. And that's, that goes beyond just tolerating one another. It goes beyond just existing together. But actually it says we are gonna learn together. And it says, I don't just want to have a multiethnic church where I've got people with different skin tones. If we're honest at times, that's what we go for. We go to the point where we'll just settle for having different people of different races. 'cause we like the optics of it. Yeah. But in an intercultural church, actually you can bring your culture to church. And I'm not, we're not just wanting people just for their skin tone, but we're actually saying we [00:43:00] recognize and see God working out his greatness in different cultures, and we're gonna learn from that. We're gonna celebrate it. We're gonna give people room to not be just from a different culture, but to bring that to church together. Mm-hmm. And it, it's so much more of a rich understanding of, of what doing life together as, as, as communities of differences are. Matt: Mm-hmm. Tony: And, and that's something I'm passionate about. Mm. Because I think, again, in the response to George Floyd, we, there's been a whole thing of just, you know, wanting our visuals and optics at church to look better. But actually, unless we are genuinely intercultural, unless we are gen gen, genuinely really valuing people for who they are and their culture were just window dressing. And I think it dishonor, God, it dishonor church. I guess one of the big shaping things for me, years ago I sat with a [00:44:00] group of pastors in Chicago, and Chicago is a really diverse city. And, uh, I sat with a pastor there who said to me, 10 30 Sunday morning is the most segregated time of the week. He said, we, we live in streets that are mixed. We work in offices that are mixed. Sunday, we worship in our own churches. Hmm. And I just thought, wow, that shouldn't be, you know, um, and, and I would say we really do need to, to challenge that kind of way of thinking. It, it happens in the uk. I'd say the other interesting thing around this is, well, particularly when we're talking about culture and intercultural churches, a lot of these things apply to class as well, and. I think in the, in the US it's more pointed around race. I think a lot of those things are valid around race here, but I think class is one of those other big distinctions in Britain that, [00:45:00] that probably also really needs dealing with at the same time. Matt: Wow. So maybe that's another, that's another stream. What does the Bible say about class, uh, or class? Uh, if write anything, Tony: I'm appreciating that you finally pronounced that word, right? It's taken 30 years, but it's been, it's been worth, Matt: yeah, it is. The first time and the last time. But fortunately we've got it on video. Um. So I get what you're saying actually about the intercultural church, and I, I understand this sort of multiculturalism has become in effect, we're just gonna sort of tolerate one another. Um, we're not gonna say anything bad about them, but we're not really gonna get to know you. We're not gonna invest time, we're not gonna promote you in any way. Um, and church, I think has, has, like you said, has been window dressing. You know, we want people with different skin tones on, uh, on, on there. And one of the things that, um, [00:46:00] uh, you, you kind of mentioned in there is that actually. To talk about racism and we should talk about racism. We should be driving for this intercultural church, but the place that we have to start is with our own hearts, even if we, even if we perceive that we are not racist. And that's a comment I hear from a lot of people, especially white people. I'm not racist, I have a black friend, or I have a, you know, this friend or whatever, and it's kind of like a badge, which proves I'm therefore not racist. But um, but actually that's not what you were getting at, was it? Tony: No. And and I think we, we have to understand prejudice begins in our own hearts. And I think as soon as we give ourselves a pass, I think we are gonna miss the point. And, um, and I think it really looking at what are my own assumptions? Matt: Mm-hmm. What Tony: are, and it is one of the interesting things about being mixed race, uh, is that [00:47:00] you have people make unguarded remarks in different situations because they see you as one of them. Yeah. You know, you're around white people and they'll make an unguarded mark racist remark 'cause hey, I, you know, we're all together or you are around, I'm around Bangladeshi people, and they'll make a, an unguarded racist remark. Hmm. And, and one of the things I think I really see in this is that there's something about each of us that tends to view ourselves and our culture as Right. And, um, and I think beginning with, with ourselves, and I think from that though, particularly when it comes to addressing stuff in, in culture, that means that we as Christians need to challenge. Structure. So this is not a pass on, right. We just got the deal with our own hearts because as Christians we do need to challenge structures that are wrong. Yeah. Because if we believe essentially that all of us have got, uh, a brokenness around race [00:48:00] in our life, and we've got wrong, uh, wrong things in our heart, then we're gonna build structures both in society, in the workplace, in families, but also in the church that are wrong and that have elements of racism in. And I think it's really important that in church we are at the forefront of challenging wrong structures within the church, but also in society. Mm-hmm. So again, you know, seeing sometimes, you know, two years ago when suddenly people wanted to talk more about race, I, I, you know, I heard a lot of pastors and Christian leaders speaking out about racism. I was really pleased to hear that. But I know that some of those same networks and leaders don't have any non-white people in leadership. Mm-hmm. And I think part of that is, yes, challenge the structure, but actually own the behavior and say, and we have done the [00:49:00] same. Matt: Mm-hmm. Tony: Um, because otherwise it's just, it's just grandstanding. Yeah. Um, and so I would wanna say we need to be in the place of challenging structures and challenging our own hearts. Mm. And and that's difficult. Matt: Yeah. So how would you, how, how would we go about doing it? I mean, how do you do it? How should I go about challenging the prejudice in my own heart? Especially if I'm, if I guess at a surface level, I kind of feel like I'm not prejudice. Do you know what I mean? And how do I, I guess, how do I look at that at a deeper level would be a question? Tony: Well, I think some of the times it is the assumptions. It's the assumptions we make. It's the, um. You know, when we look at a situation and we prejudge someone's motives and we do. Mm-hmm. And you know, one of my good friends, James will say that if he walks home, he's a, he is a black guy. If he walks home at night and people will [00:50:00] just walk towards the other side of the road sometimes when they see him, because they make assumptions about what he looks like and what the fact that he might mug them or whatever, just 'cause he is a really well-built black guy. Mm-hmm. Like at that point, if we find ourselves thinking those kind of things, actually we do need to challenge that in our hearts. Mm-hmm. We do need to recognize, hey, that's a sign of prejudice, or we just expect, uh, a lower standard of behavior from a different cultural group. Um, and, and I think it, it, it, it, that is part of that process. But I think also it's realizing in. The things that we are responsible for are we, are we creating space and genuinely valuing people of different backgrounds? So in our, in our church, if ever we're, uh, appraising someone from a leader for a leadership role, we won't give responsibility to anyone [00:51:00] that we don't actively see. Making an effort to build life and relationships with people who are different to them. Mm-hmm. So not just a passive sense of, uh, I'm not gonna tell a racist joke, but actually a, a positive sense of valuing others and living out that value. And if, if we don't see that in someone's life, we don't want them to be a leader in our church. Um, and that's, you know, but I think that's how you change structures and you change situations. Yeah. We're actually being serious about this stuff. Matt: Yeah. That's a really interesting point. I mean, Sharon's put here in the comments, how does your church service express be in intercultural? And I guess from a leadership point of view, what you are, if I'm hearing it, it's not just a case of the lack of the racist jokes on Twitter or whatever, you know, social media platform that you're looking at. It's actually the, the desire to become, to understand and to get to know another [00:52:00] culture, another, uh, rather than just going, well, 'cause I think a lot of white people do this. They go, I've not made any, any bad remarks. I've, I've, I've got a black friend, but it's kind of like, therefore I'm not racist. But actually there's a prejudice there, maybe, which stops 'em going and forming relationship and investing time in, uh, a different culture. It's, am I hearing that right? Yeah. Tony: Yeah. And, and I think it's like, so one of the things that we would do at church is that we want to make sure that our services reflect the local community. We wanna make sure our leadership team looks like the local community. So, uh, that means we're intentional around leadership development. It means that if you come into, if you come to our service today, you would see our service was hosted by a Bangladeshi woman from a Muslim background. Mm-hmm. And she hosts brilliantly, but actually she stumbles over her words sometimes or Mispronounces. But we [00:53:00] realize that there is something that she brings in how she hosts, she brings some of her culture, she brings something else in. And the fact is, loads of churches just wouldn't make room for someone like that. And, and there, there would be a lot poorer. For it. Mm. So I think there's a thing about intentional leadership development, but I guess if I, if you don't mind me being a little bit controversial. Well, I'm Matt: surprised it's taking you this long, Tony: bro. What, what, what, what I would say right, is people talk about wanting to lead an intercultural church. I don't think you can lead a, an intercultural li church unless you live an intercultural life. Mm-hmm. So one of the things if, if you hear someone talk about wanting to lead an intercultural church or whatever, is just look at that person in their special times. Look at their, their social media feeds. Whatever the special times in their life, the important things does. Everybody [00:54:00] around them look just like them. Matt: Hmm. Tony: Because if it does, I'd challenge the, uh, their ability to actually lead that kind of change. Mm. Again, that's not always obvious. 'cause sometimes that might be the context may be actually about the need to build with different social classes and things like that. But if we surround ourselves and our inner world, particularly as leaders with people who are just like us, then I don't think we'll ever grow something that's genuinely intercultural. Um, and, and I think that's worth just flagging up because again, and that's something, you know, maybe all of us could do. Mm-hmm. You know, think about our own private world. You know, how, what does that look like? Do we see people that are different to us? Mm. Because I, you know, I think far too many Christians are kind of a bit narcissistic, and that means that we, we think that we wanna surround ourselves [00:55:00] with people who are like us. Yeah. Um, and so I, I think that really is a good place to, to think about how do we actually challenge that and we, and see that the Bible presents a really proactive picture of this, you know, right from close to the start of the New Testament church. We see that at Antioch in the Book of Acts. Then Jewish background believers begin to share the good news of Jesus with people who weren't Jewish. Mm. And what we see is it becomes the hinge of history. The church swings from being based, uh, largely in Jerusalem, to Antioch from being gathered to scent and missionary from being largely Jewish to multiethnic. Matt: Mm. Tony: And you can see that 'cause pretty soon in, in, in acts we read the, the list of the names of the leaders of that church. And we can tell from that there were people from different cultures. Already leading, you know, uh, [00:56:00] Paul in Colossians really makes the point, um, a, a about the whole thing of, of being neither j nor Greek. We see, uh, June nor Gentile, we see that, we see this shift into the New Testament in, in Corinthians, in Colossians, in Galatians, so much of the New Testament church, the letters are written to a, a, a degree of conflict that comes from people of different races and backgrounds doing life together. And they needed to write those things because of the fact that people's cultures were being merged. And I think. The fact that we don't read those letters that way is often because we are not faced with enough, uh, difficulty. We're not faced with enough merging of cultures. So, so I would say, again, another really big principles, the Romans 14 thing. Accept one another. Matt: Yeah. Tony: And pursue those things which make for the building up of one [00:57:00] another. And again, that's brilliant because it says actually I'm gonna intentionally build with people who are different around what unites us. But it assumes there are people with differences in the same room. Yeah. And actually that's always true, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And also it assumes though that, that we give freedom to each other to be different. So what we're not talking about is all becoming one mixed culture. And it's a bit like so, so Scott McKnight's a really interesting American theologian. He's written a book called A Fellowship of Difference and he talks about the way you eat salads. And he says, like he says, like you can take a salad and you can stick it in a blender and make a smoothie. And smoothies ultimately always disappoint, don't they? 'cause the ingredients might be decent, but they taste of kind of this gloopy mess of everything. And you lose the [00:58:00] distinctive, or they, he talks about the way the Americans eat a salad, which is cover it in so much blue cheese sauce that you only taste the blue cheese sauce. And again, it's denying difference. And then he says, well actually our churches need to be more like fruit salads, where you get a hit of mango and then you get a hit of pineapple and then you get some orange and some grapefruit and some kiwi and, and actually it's all together, but we are not losing the distinctiveness. Yeah. And I think sometimes we think a, you know, bringing people together means just being bland, lowest common denominator. And actually the New Testament church wasn't like that. It celebrated difference. Yeah. Um, and, and I think there's, that's what, there's something compelling about that, and that's where the world arounds us struggles, because either it just goes for the really bland form or just separate existence. Yeah. And the Bible doesn't leave up that as an open [00:59:00] choice for us. So I'd say that's a biggie. You know, let's, yeah. That's, Matt: that's huge. And that's actually, I like that because, um, because like you say that there are some good ideas out there and the, and the, and the, but the church has to be, the gospel of Christ has to be more than just a good idea. It has to be transformative and it's. And what you are talking about really can only come from Christ in terms of the transformation. And I and I that's good because then it's down on him and his grace and his, his power to work through is to bring, uh, this, this to pass, isn't it? And it's exciting and I like that. I like that analogy. Um, I, I like the challenge. Uh, and yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I think you, you, I'm, I'm aware of time, uh, and I said that we'd finish about seven and it's seven o'clock now. And so, um, I'm just gonna end with this where, where you said in your talk, let's not pretend that racism is something that others have to deal with. Um, actually that's a really [01:00:00] profound statement. It's something that we have to invite the Holy Spirit into and make change as a result of, right? So Tony, thank you so much my friend. It's been an absolute treat. Tony: This is great. It'd be great to come and spend some more time talking about what does challenging racism look like at some point. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now that you Matt: see Tony: how that sounds. That's, yeah. And, and, and maybe just one last thought. You know, for those of us who found ourselves on the receiving end of racism, I believe there's a challenge also not to find our identity in being a victim. And, and that's a really complicated conversation, but I do just wanted to throw that out. That, you know, racism is wrong. It's dehumanizing. And I think it's really important that our response to it, if we're on the receiving end of it, or when we're on the receiving end of it, is not to find place in our hearts for a victim mentality. It, it can [01:01:00] acknowledge the pain of it, but actually to find identity in Christ. Mm. And not particularly as our culture would kind of. Encourage us right now to find a status in declaring yourself as a victim. Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a challenge in there, which that's just a, that's just a thing to throw out, but it's, it's worth saying. Yeah. Matt: And it, I think it's super powerful because I, I know what you mean. Uh, not I, I don't feel like I've suffered racism, you know? But I, there are, there are things that, there are persecutions want of better expression that I have suffered. And it, and I have found in those situations, um, that I've become angry and bitter. And you find identity in that, that victimhood. Um, have you suffered from racism? That's an obvious question. Yeah. Tony: Yeah. I mean, and, and sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's not. I mean, I remember the estate I grew up on, there was quite a lot of [01:02:00] overt racism. Matt: Mm-hmm. Tony: But actually, I, I think coming to university. And being amongst a bunch of middle class people, many of whom weren't really used to being with people from different cultures, I was shocked at, at some of it, and shocked at the, the snickering or the kind of looking down on other cultures or jokes about curry or, you know, like that kind of stuff. Mm mm Um, yeah. And, and, and it goes on. I mean, you know, I think we build flawed structures and flawed structures, um, mean that, yeah. I mean, I encounter racism quite a lot. Um, and I would say actually at times I encounter it in my own heart. And that's, that's the disturbing part, isn't it? Mm. That we realize that actually there's something in my heart as well. Mm. Um, so I would say I definitely encounter racism [01:03:00] and I think at times I find it in my own heart, and that's my challenge. Um, is yes to challenge what I see externally, but to ask God to root out in my own heart where it's so, wow. Matt: Wow. I feel like we're just scratching the surface here, but, uh, so maybe we do need a part two of this conversation, which I think would be quite fascinating. Um, Tony: just, and we didn't even get into anything about slavery and all that kind of stuff. That's what I mean, Matt: there's just so much to talk about and it's, um, it is a much, much bigger topic. I think the bottom line is though, um, that, uh, racism cannot coexist with the love of God. It just, the two things can't coexist. So if your heart is full of the love of God, racism can't coexist there. And so, um, so I think, yeah, the gospel makes a difference. And I, if you are watching this and you are new to Christianity. Um, or you've been part of a church where this has not actually been the norm. [01:04:00] I I can only apologize, uh, you know, from my point of view. Um, because I, I love the picture, Tony, that you have painted. And I, and I go, yes, that's the church that I, I want to be a part of. So, um. Uh, so yeah, so if you are watching this, you want to connect with Tony. Tony is the pastor of Tower Hamlet's Community Church based down in London. If you are in London and you are looking for a church, check out Chinese Church. Go and say how, how's it and, and get involved. Uh, I'm sure he would love to meet you. Uh, next lemme just tell you quickly what's coming up next week. Uh, next week we are talking about friendship. Nick Harding is here and asking the question, what does the Bible say about friendship? Uh, so we are gonna get into that. Make sure you are subscribed to get all the notifications or head on over to the website, which you can see that corner of the screen underneath the little logo, www dot Crowd Church. Sign up to the emails. Get ahold of us via WhatsApp if you want to connect with us that way, as I know many people do with their questions, we would love to connect with you, love to hear from you. And if you are looking for a [01:05:00] church we'd love for you to make Crowd your home or go to Tower Hamlet's Community Church, why not? If you're in London, it'd be worth a trip. And tell Tony I said hi. Uh, but yeah, no, I appreciate you being with us. We are gonna close out today's service with one more worship song. The livestream will end at the end of this automatically, Tony and I won't be back. Uh, so from myself. Uh, goodbye. Tony, any closing words from you, my friends? Tony: Let's just keep these conversations going. Like, throw stuff out. They, some of it will hit home. Some of it might make you glad, some of it mad, but, uh, you know what? Keep up those conversations. And I think, again, just really key in it. Let's be people who ask great questions and listen. Well, listen, ask somebody that, uh, their experiences, listen to what around this, listen to what they say without trying to correct them. Brilliant. And, and they, yeah. So that's, that's it. [01:06:00] But great to be with you guys and look forward to being here again. Absolutely indeed. Alright, Matt: have a great week guys and gals. Bless you. Bye for now. Bless you.