Faith, Fatherhood, and Godly Masculinity

hey there and welcome to what's the story we're an inquisitive bunch of hosts on a mission to uncover stories about faith and courage from Everyday People in doing that we get the privilege of chatting with amazing guests and have the opportunity to delve into their faith Journey the hurdles they've overcome and the life lessons they've learned along the way if you enjoy our podcast don't forget to subscribe and sign up for our Weekly Newsletter at our website whatsthestory podcast.com it's your direct line to the latest episodes and detailed show notes delivered straight to your inbox what's the story is brought to you by crowd Church who fully understand that stepping into a traditional Church might not be everyone's cup of gel crowd Church provides a digital Sanctuary a safe space to explore the Christian faith where you can engage in meaningful conversations rather than just simply spectating so whether you're new to the Christian faith or in search of a new church family visit C cr. church and if you have any questions just drop them an email to hello crow. Church they would love to connect with you and now let's meet your host and our special guest for today wow I am back with Jonathan Lewis who has been on the show before he's been on what's the story and we had such a great conversation I absolutely loved it and we got talking after we stopped recording uh about uh what he does with fathers for fathers uh his ministry uh to men and his heart for men and I'm like we need to do another recording uh and have a conversation uh specifically aimed at men which is what we're going to do and ladies feel free to to listen uh in you know we're we're definitely not um excluding you here but I do want to talk yeah absolutely we do want to talk to the hearts of men now just in case this is your first time with us let me explain Jonathan is the president of Eastport Financial Group he's author of deep water and more than money he's also as I say the founder of fathers for fathers uh his more than money podcast explores the stewardships of all our assets he is a dedicated husband and father lives in Nova Scotia in Canada which must be coming up to good ski season uh Jonathan uh he's passionate first snow a couple nights ago Matt no way you see now I this is where I go start to get a little bit envious I'm not going to lie are you a man of the slopes do you take to the slopes uh yeah I love skiing uh but Eastern Canada is not doesn't lend itself as well as um western Canada but um yeah no we'll get out to bamp for um my f Favorite Hill in Canada is Fernie it's relatively unknown it's on the US border but it's it's four bowls the mountains are all 12 to 14,000 feet and it's just crazy powder like nice 25 30 ft of powder see now I know the Bible talks about envy and I'm going to fall into that if I'm not too careful or you can come visit you can come visit yeah know for Father's for Father's conference you could be one of our speakers I'm there man just tell me where and when I just I'll jump on a plane it'd be fantastic we're um we the show's producer I don't know if you ever met sadf sadf who produces this show I did I did she actually yeah we chatted for maybe 10 minutes she's like okay you need to do this interview with Matt he's the guy yeah yeah she's a legend she actually hosts she's there are three people that now Host this podcast who do interviews so it's not just me all the time sf's one of them and a beautiful lady called Anna so they're they're stepping into the Realms of doing it all as well but she's crazy about Canada and uh yeah I I I still need to go my cousin lives over in Vancouver I mean I just need to go to Canada but I I have this quite um unrealistic expectation I think that Canada is just covered in snow uh from like this time for like the next four mon it will be another couple of weeks until probably April so it's not that unrealistic that's why we all live like what's there 40 million Canadians I think 39,999 th000 of us live right on the US border so people say what are you doing well I'm going to go south for the winner oh you're heading down heading down to the Border yeah I'm just going to hang out warm Myself by the US border see what Trump's doing exactly then come back oh goodness in fact that that's one of the big things that's happened since we last spoke As Trump is now president-elect again yeah goodness me it's uh it's been a fascinating tumultuous few months I think politically certainly in the UK and in the US with all the elections going on yeah um but it's it's a funny one isn't it I I I was my uh side hustle for a better expression and I do e-commerce as you know and I was asked this question you know about how um how the presidential uh elections would affect e-commerce sales and obviously what we saw was mass uncertainty Mass uncertainty means you spend less money um and so consumer confidence fell and sales fell uh and it's interesting isn't it the sort of this time of uncertainty I almost think it brings out the worst in people sometimes I don't know if you've seen this yeah maybe it's just me no um I think uh it's interesting like it's it's it's a good place to start actually cuz we're going to talk about men and you know what is what do a non-toxic male look like what is healthy masculinity I think uh one of them is uh that that there's the guy's got peace and so right now people don't have a lot of Peace yeah um there's a lot happening and which is interesting because John even uh warns us and Jesus warned us like read the Times like the be um rumors of war and all these things will be happening and he says you know don't worry right and so um you know like you're an e-commerce I manage money for a living um I've done it for 20 24 years um and uh I find it remarkable uh how people will put their um trust in uh something that is very non-tangible uh that can buy tangible things that ultimately aren't even tangible because you can't take it with you like the pharaoh's tried yeah and so it's like what what really what really is tangible right um and uh I think about like like I haven't always been a Christian like I grew up in a a cultural Christian environment but I I was 34 I'm 48 now so 14 years ago um I think I got to a place and this might some of the guys listening where I was just like I want something real I want uh truth and I just don't feel like I'm finding it anywhere and the world just seems like it's totally chaotic and I I just didn't want to be a cynic I think you can become a cynic but I'm a naturally just a really happy optimistic person I was like well I don't I I don't want to be a cynic yeah so I want to be happy um but to be happy I've got to have some confidence that uh has deeper Roots than my savings my house and if I'm debt free yeah um especially when you got you know Trump boasting that he's got a bigger red button than Kim and his works right it's like oh my dear God help me so um so I want I think I just I wanted something more Transcendent where I had some peace and um and so it it dawned on me um during this pilgrimage and we talked about just that journey of sanctification where uh there's there's there's really only two things that I would argue for the guys listening that last forever uh the the first one is probably easier for you to accept and that is your soul so every one of us I believe is a spiritual being um and we have a soul that is going to live these I call it the meat sack some of us have really nice meat sacks I'm a pasty 48-year-old white Canadian guy with my wife literally says you got to cover that backside up you can't like she puts sunglasses when I walk in the shower so um so these meat sacks aren't going anywhere other than into the grave and it's like okay what happens to to Jonathan like the soul that resides inside this body and and I believe they're going to live forever and so the question then invariable is is well there's all these religions in the world and every one of them tells me I have to do something to earn God's favor and only one of them tells me I don't have to do anything except accept accept it and it's a free gift that I didn't earn um and it's this person saying I want to have a relationship with your soul that he's arguing he created um and it's because he and he gave me this free will he gave me the autonomy to choose whatever I want and I can choose to be with him or or um and and explore this relationship with him that he wants to go on eternally or I can choose to to ignore that and you know like the late Billy Graham uh and I think just about everybody around the world knows Billy Graham but like I heard him preaching a sermon and it really hit me he said you know hell is a real place and it wasn't created for us that's true it was created for Satan and his uh angels that rejected and rebelled against God that's what it was created for and so he said it wasn't made for us Ben it wasn't made for our wives and our children it was made for for those that rebel against him and so he's saying I'm giving you a free will because I don't want a relationship with a robot right um Elon Musk has got his Optimus 3es out now I don't know if you saw that but uh $20,000 us I don't know what that is in British Pounds like 15,000 yeah about maybe 16 17 somewhere around there yeah wow you guys gota get the pound rocking and rolling again tell me about it yeah yeah but like so let's say 16,000 lbs and you you can have an Optimus 3 that only needs to charge for an hour a day it'll cook clean uh do the yard work I'm thinking my gosh we're there right but here's what the Optimus 3 doesn't have it doesn't have a soul and it's going to do whatever we ask it to do because it has no free will and I just think how amazing that that we were created um and God said I'm going to give you an eternal soul and I'm going to let you choose to accept me or reject me and then the other thing that is eternal um he said is is my word right that's that's the other thing that will last forever and and so there's a a missionary that in Christian circles a lot of people would know um and uh you know he was in um South America um and he literally uh is noted for saying um and you would know him it's Jim Elliot and it's my favorite Jim Elliott quote he said he's no fool who gives up that which he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose and so you know I think you know every every guy listening if if you're not a Christian you got to really ask yourself what is this all about yeah you know like like right now Americans are like Trump's back they just I don't know if you know this but they won the Congress last night majority so they got in in a congressional system they now have the president the Senate and the Congress the last time that happened was 25 years ago under Bush Jr um and so he literally can like change laws and run them through the Senate well the Senate is the executive branch run them through Congress with little to no resistance like um and so you know there's a lot of Americans that are really excited about that and there's a lot of Americans that are petrified of that yeah and it would have been the other way if Camala had a won there would be a couple hundred million Americans were excited about that and a couple hundred million Americans who would have been like oh my gosh we're doomed and and it's like when you look at what's going on in the world stage with Israel and the conflict in the Middle East and Ukraine and I mean my God now North Korea is sending troops to to bellus right um it's like where does this all end and um you know God said in the Bible um that it's going to end when I sent my son back to get you guys MH and here already came to remediate um you know that which you cannot remediate which is sin um and uh and this was actually a big thing for me in my my journey Matt was like it dawned on me that every single living thing on the planet seems to have a place in the in the in the chain of life and it's edifying and um you know even if it's a lion killing um an an animal and the herd and the you know Saharan um you know the The Plains of Africa there's a purpose in it and but there's no animal on the planet that destroys its own environment and each other on mass yeah uh like only a virus does that actually it destroys its own host and so obviously the cynics and and the atheists and people would say oh well you know um humans are are we're like we're like a parasite right we just destroy our own host and I mean there's no shortage of Marvel movies and um you know doomsday apocalyptic things where it's like you know and then we've got Bill Gates who just wants to um vaccinate all of us and prevent our abing to have children at least some people say so but at the end of the day I sit here and think okay so what why why are we like that and the only thing I could come up with when I was in my 30s was well sin like we we have this carnal nature bodus that's selfish yeah um that's self-destructive that we put ourselves ahead of others like it's like we literally come into this world um wanting what we want and we don't care what it does to others or who it hurts or what it hurts or how it hurts the planet and and really you can draw a line and say well it's not like we're not like a a virus that destroys its host we're just sinful yeah and so that was a that's a tough one like like to say to you you are sinful and you can't even help it like you don't even have a way to remediate it like um some guys have already turned us off but um the ones that are sticking around y you but um it's okay because one of the greatest um early church leaders um who wrote two-thirds of the new testament which is the books written after Jesus including Jesus's life was the Apostle Paul and he wrote a Manifesto if you will when he was under host arrest in Rome waiting to see Caesar so he's literally uh appealed all the way to the highest courts because he's a Roman citizen and he's like I want to see Caesar and he's going to share the gospel with the most powerful man in the world and he's either going to convert him or um get the axe and and we know it didn't didn't go so well but while he was waiting to see him he wrote this book and in the book um he wrestles with basically the first bunch of chapters like what's wrong with us the same as what I'm doing here yeah then he's like well this is the solution and it was Jesus this guy who claimed to be the Son of God so he's either crazy a liar or he was who he said he was so everybody like you owe it to yourself to go and figure out was he out of his mind was he a liar or was he who he said he was I I settled on Jesus Christ was the most gutsiest guy who's ever lived on the planet that's where I landed took me a few years to get there but in the end I was like holy cow this guy had guts yeah and it's because he was who he said he was yeahh and he was here for a purpose but Paul basically says you got a problem Jesus is the solution and then here's how you go and live that out and even Paul says in Romans 7:15 he says I don't know what's wrong with me even though I know the truth and I've accepted it and I believe it I don't do what I want to do y i sin y despite myself and then when I want to do something good I don't do it I do something bad and this is like literally the guy who led the the early church and was like like we told him as like the man's man of the early church and he did some incredible stuff I mean they hated what he was saying so if you want to turn this podcast off go ahead I mean they threw him off a wall he jumped up ran right back into the City and grabbed the mic t t I'm not finished right I mean you want to talk about another gutsy guy but even then he said I I can't shake this flesh this fleshiness of who I am but then later on he says but you're okay because um there's no condemnation for those that that take that free will that God gave us and say I I want to I want to know God I wanna I want to explore this and by the way you don't have to have it figured out God loves when you just say I just want to know more like that's actually what excites him yeah right is it's like hey this guy's just wants a second date with me man that's awesome right that's how God feels and then Paul says in Romans 8 for as many as are led by the spirit of God these are the sons of God for you did not receive the spirit of bondage gained to fear but you receive the spirit of adoption by whom we cry ABA father and so you know fathers for fathers and the heart that I have for men and I know you do is it really comes down to that is if there if this is true if if God created us to have souls that are going to live forever and um he's just and he has to do something something about the devil and his cronies so he's he's got that sorted but he gave us each a free will to choose to have that second date and say no to our flesh and say I just I want something real I want something more I want something that's based in some truth that is transcendent and Timeless and doesn't depend on a war in Ukraine or my bank account or what Trump does or Camala does I don't know who who's your I know you guys got some drama going on Kiss Country yeah yeah yeah so or you know a guy with even better hair than mine Justin Trudeau um so so at the end of the day it's like do I really want to put my stock in people flawed people or do I actually want to explore this guy who says Hey like I I I knew you before time I counted your hairs on your head you know Psalm 139 um in the Bible says you were fearfully and M wonderfully made so um for the guys listening um I mean I would just implore you to not not take anybody's word for it just trust your instinct um as a matter of fact if this is making you angry that's probably a good thing yeah because it's actually your flesh uh sort of raging against it and and here's a Zinger if you haven't turned me off yet this will kill it you actually are made for one purpose and it's to glorify God so it's not even about you um your whole existence the same as the flowers in the field and the beautiful sunrise is all about glorifying him that is so offensive to our flesh yeah like like everything in us just rages against that I remember the first time I heard that I was like oh my gosh like I'm out I'm not coming back I'm not coming back to this stupid Church um and then and the next Sunday I walked in I sat at the back again and I like Matt I I don't know what you guys call it but like I call it cers row like the very back pew against the wall like cuz I want to see all these crazy Hol rollers coming so if I have to like you know Fain a right and go left to get out of their clutches you know with their you know sandwiches with no crust they're board games and Jesus loves you um and so I I literally for like 7 or8 years sat in the back row of this little rural Baptist Church here like near where we live and um like soon as they started like you know when they start wrapping up the service yeah uh and you know the Pastor's going to do the whole you know I'm going to go to the door and shake your hand on the way out like they maybe they don't do that in the UK but they still do that here places so but you know how you can do the I got to go to the bathroom and I'll go out the back door kind of and you don't park in the parking lot right you park across the street because you got to make a fast getaway y so like like that that was me but I but I wanted I wanted to know more I wanted to know what Jim Elliot meant by um you're no fool who gives up that which you can't keep it's like what can I keep what it's all of this it's even this to gain something that you can't lose it's like well doesn't make sense to me like what what what will I always have even in eternity and it's my soul it's me yep and what's what's scary and I don't want to scare anybody but the Bible says that if you choose not to pursue a relationship with God and you don't get to know his son um then there's a place for Satan and his cronies but it says there'll be weeping and nashing of teeth there and I I spent a lot of time thinking about that I thought weeping and nashing and teeth well those are like two different camps and at dawn on me the Weeping are the people that heard a podcast like this or heard the truth and rejected it it's like ah no it's too like sci-fi I'd rather just watch Marvel movies and believe in Iron Man um uh and then there's the nashers the nashers are the ones that are they're still angry even in turn they're still waving their fist at God yeah and they got a hatred on for him that like wow but I my heart breaks for the weepers the ones that kind of they heard the truth they said yeah you know maybe I'll get around to it or they passively explored it but they didn't really pursue it life got the better of them and those are the people that I really feel a burden for yeah um so yeah that's that's all the introduction yeah is great what do you think it is um you know we weal we started off talking about peace and actually you know one of the great gifts that I think God gives us is this um undescribable piece I think scripture calls it doesn't it there sort of a piece which passes all understanding depend on which translation you read and it guards our hearts and it guards our minds MH and I I think about the current culture you talked about how you know we as men we we don't have to have it all figured out you know you just you can come to God you don't need it all figured out but at the same time we live in a culture where I think um for men we feel like we have to have it all figured out I don't know if that again that's just me but is that is is something that is innate in us do you think is that something that we have learned I guess through our lives through through the the way that we are I think it takes a lot to admit that you don't know everything I mean age I think is probably one of them you know when I was in my early 20s I I knew I was talking you knew you had it figured out well I was talking to a friend I was talking to a friend of mine the other day right about his son so he was he was he was he was talking about his son he he like it's and his son was like 19 years old and he said he just doesn't listen to me this was his complaint just he's not listening to a word I'm saying about this particular thing and I looked at him and I said and what part of you is actually surprised and he said well what do you mean I said well when you were 19 can I ask you a question did you know more than your parents and he said yes of course I did and I'm like why do you think your 19yearold son is going to be any different right of course you but as you get older I think you realize you know less and less really um but it's an interesting one isn't it that that that is is this innate in us as men is it a a pure masculine thing is it I'm I'm curious to where you stand on it I don't know like you know the more I um try and understand the masculine journey I feel like there's so much in common between men and women that um it's we're not as different as we like to think we are now we are definitely different my wife will test to that but um yeah we'll just speak to the guy side of this so I think as guys whether it's our culture our our family Dynamics um you know the environment we grow up in but it does seem to be a global thing and that there's an expectation that we are fixers we will fix it we want to fix it um we are more hardwired you know when you think about fight or or uh flight I think most guys fall into fight um not all and so you know even the ones that would be ERS would be like well there's got to be a way to fix this um so they might want to withdraw from the conflict to figure out a way to solve the problem but we tend to be fixers right and so I think that I know for me um like I can really move at a high frequency um I'm used to doing a lot and I'm used to getting a lot done and I'm used to having a lot of very talented people around me that I can lean on that are also very good and so I get disappointed when hit a a ceiling of complexity and everybody's like Jay we just can't take any more on I'm like what right um what so they all they all make fun of me that's apparently my reaction is what um but um as if I'm just completely shocked what do you mean we've hit a a Max Capacity what um uh but uh but I think guys are naturally wired to want to fix it but I also think like I know with my wife um she kind of wants to know that I I have a plan and it gives her some Solace if she knows I have a plan um and that's not that's not the dynamic of every household and I'm certainly keenly aware of that so but um but I know for me just speaking to the guys uh when I wrote more than money um and I did a whole podcast on this although my my guest wasn't that um that Stellar on time we talked about time and then went like on forever and we never talked about time but but uh so I might have to Circle back around and do another interview on stewarding time but but there's only 168 hours in a week it doesn't matter if you're in Gulu Uganda uh Liverpool hellofax Nova Scotia New York City Tokyo we all got 168 hours like how interesting right yeah nobody gets more nobody gets less doesn't matter if you're rich or poor um and um and we don't even know if we get the 168 hours because we actually aren't even in control of Our Lives yeah and that these uh bodies will eventually fail us and we we don't know when um so I think acknowledging where you are in the pecking order which is we are a finite being with only 168 hours uh and I always of the mindset if God's willing and in his grace I have because I don't know if I have the next hour after this podcast I hope I do um so and then I I get to a place where I'm like okay well I sleep for 50 hopefully as you get older um that seems to get harder it's more trips to the bathroom um and then and then we work for say 50 so it leaves me with 68 hours well what could I in really in my arrogance In My Pride what can I actually accomplish in 68 hours like not a lot right by the time I eat uh try and get some exercise be present in you know the lives of the people that matter most to me you know you start working backwards there the time ticks down and and so I I know I got to a place where I was like okay well if I believe that God is before time outside of time uh he says I am the beginning the end the alpha the Omega he's not even constrained by time right like we have a hard time understanding God because we're linear in our thought process um and uh and I and I trust that what he says is is like I actually care about you like like I I in all my omnipotence I love you and I actually counted the hair on each guy listening to this podcast and woman it's like he says a sparrow doesn't fall from the sky without me knowing and thinking okay well if if that's the case what pressure do I actually really have on me like do do do I have to do this with the 68 hours I have or or is it more important that I'm I'm sort of looking to him and saying hey what would you have me do here um like if we're friends which I I understand is what you're telling me we are and and you sent your son to die on a cross for me because I couldn't solve this flesh issue I have um I kind of need to know what you want me to to do right now and and I don't feel like I should be stressed or worried or um not have peace in my heart um if I really trust that you are who you say you are and so it's not to say that I live this out perfectly um there's highs and lows right um because let's not forget there's that crony with you know a third of Heaven that like hates God and he hates us andh if you go down this pilgrimage where you start trying to get to know God better you'll definitely experience some things that you're like wow these guys sold me a bill of goods I don't sign up for um you know Johnny Cash said being a Christian takes guts and it's not easy and it's not for every man that's so true and I think it's true like like like don't you think that we've made it I well let me clarify what I was going to say because I've been a Christian 30 years right yeah just over 30 years I I became a Christian when I was 18 and I and when I became a Christian there was a high it was a high call right you you understood that when you became a Christian um you had to lay down your cross and there was these conversations um I sorry you had to pick up your cross you know lay down your life this was going to be something that cost you it's a bit like the old Shackleton kind of AD you know we want uh explorers we want adventurers it's going to be long hours it's going to be cold um it's going to be an adventure and you're probably going to die and you know men sign up for that kind of thing don't they and it's it's that Call to Adventure but that call to a tough Adventure um it's going to take goods and then we kind of went through the 9s is where it was doesn't matter what your problem is come to Jesus he'll solve it kind of a thing you know the challeng Jesus in a lamp Jesus in a lamp tell himly yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly just you know and he'll fix it and because he loves you yeah because and and I get that I get why that would be a phrase but it became almost easier to talk about the easy Jesus and we stopped talking about actually God is going to take your life he is going to shake you upside one one side and down the other and he is going to love you he is going to create You In His Image and he is going to have some Adventures for you but you are going to have to dig deep yeah here here's some basic premises if if you accept the fact that our bodies are going to die right and this is a Fallen World with all kinds of Brokenness and even if a whole bunch of people said yeah okay I believe in Jesus there's a whole bunch of people that don't so you're going to have wickedness you're going to have all kinds of terrible things happen you're going to have men raping women countries attacking countries hopefully not Kim with his little red button going up against Trump with his big red button but like like Wars are going to happen people are going to get murdered and so then it's like okay well how do I live in that as this follower of Jesus and what is the you know Jesus in a lamp do for me yeah and I really got to a place where it's like okay Adam and Eve chose to eat the the the tree of the good knowledge of Good and Evil and they made a choice for all of us you know is what the Bible tells tells us that that now we're all stricken with so I'm choosing to reject that that moment in my own life where it's like okay um Lord I don't want to lean on my own understanding I want to understand the way you see the world and the way you see me in my place in it but here's the thing um he doesn't promise that um after that it's roses and Sh sunshine and Christians are going to walk around like with you know pixie Birds coming up of their hair it's like you know and you know sunflowers and you know um skippity L like he's like no you're going to live in this Fallen broken world and you are going to be my light to it so what does that look like well you know um in my life um I had a a grandfather who was a World War II vet he fought under Montgomery actually because he signed up with the uh British fusers in Vancouver who then deployed under Montgomery in Africa Italy and operation markard he came home an alcoholic my my great uncle would go visit him in the brri whenever he went to visit him because he was always fighting alcohol became the way he coped with PTSD from all the conflict he saw he saw his entire platoon wiped out by one Italian tank u in the Italian campaign um so then he brought that into the home with my grandmother and my dad and his two brothers where they were all abused um and uh and then my dad I grew up with a dad who was like well I'm never going to drink like my dad but he still struggled with that abusive nature yeah so uh he was verbally abusive and sometimes physically abusive I love my dad uh like any young boy I just longed for his approval I think that's something that men have in our DNA we long for the approval of a male role model uh I believe that's actually written in our spiritual DNA to long for God's approval that's why we're that way um our our fatherson relationships that we have is God giving us this that experience to model after except very often they're broken damaged uh we become damaged so then we have this tainted idea of what a God the Father what a relationship with a heavenly father would look like because we didn't have a good one down here my dad drowned him and I were scuba diving just after my 15th birthday I dragged his dead body from the Atlantic Ocean to the beach I went through a season of homelessness coach surfing living in my car um lived in the Rocky Mountains uh you know planting trees joined the Canadian Armed Forces learned how to drink uh probably was what kept me out of jail um um had a stepdad who came into our home um who's a good man but there was no place for me in that home um you know had a hate on for God was like if it's meant to be it's up to me went out to prove myself you know made my first million dollars by the time I was like 25 26 years old in my anger messed up a wonderful relationship with my high school sweetheart because I was just angry at the world and damaged um you know that led to a marriage uh that ended in divorce um with two little girls that were three and two at the time and uh she was unhappy didn't want you know to be in the marriage and um and it just goes on and on uh even now in the past six months we've had a carget washed away in a flood we got a new car we had it for 6 days it still had the original tank of gas my wife got creamed by a guy doing 110 km an hour she's still suffering from a concussion I've had skin cancer and you know four months ago my business was overdrawn and I was two weeks away from wondering how I was going to make payroll because I'm trying to grow it so fast so so and like you can fill in all the other drama that goes in there that's just like uh Jonathan's life in a nutshell and it's like okay like how can this guy actually like be at peace and trust God well it's it's simple he he not Jesus in the lamb he didn't promise that it was going to he was going to take away all the woes and hardships here's what he said he said I will take your entire Narrative of your life and if you trust me with it I will even all the bad stuff I will work it for good for my glory uh and uh and I'll work it for good for you but you got to trust me and so it's a really funny thing because it's like how do you trust a god you cannot see and trust that some guy who walked around for uh three years 2,000 years ago and disrupted the status quo of both the political environment and the religious environment so they nailed him across and um and then somehow for 2,000 years um billions of people have uh stake their their their Eternal Hope on this guy yeah and it's like you get to a point where you're like okay all this hardship all this difficulty that everyone of us has in our life and I'm just one if if ultimately I'm his and I trust him then um does it really matter in the grand scheme of things um and so um I'll give an example um you know when when I went through a season uh two years ago where our teenage daughters were like hey we just we don't want to we don't want to be with you and Sarah right so Sarah and I've been married 11 years now amazing woman um we want to live with Mom it was crushing and I remember fasting and praying saying Lord like I've signed up for everything but I can't survive this like I've been fatherless I don't know how my kids would want to be fatherless how can you allow this to happen I've done everything you've asked me to do I've stayed in her hometown just a few doors down from my ex-in-laws for my kids and now now they're just ditching me and you know what he said to me all I got uh on the The Winds of the spirit was do you trust me mhm that was it I was so ticked off I was like that I was looking for a little more than that and it was do you trust me and it was do you trust me and do you believe that I love those kids more than you do andh is this about you and them or about them and me like is it more important to you that they know me or is it more important that they come back to you like what are you praying for here because if you really believe what you say you believe which is you have an eternal Soul that's going to live on forever as do they isn't it more important that they know me shouldn't you be interceding and praying that so you know when you and I were talking earlier about it's not for the the weak of heart living in this world is not for the faint of heart it's tough that's why people become bitter and cynical and they hate Christians and you know they're like your God you know if your God is real then why does he allow all this to happen well he doesn't want this to happen we chose this for ourselves but what he promises is he will walk through through the storm with us and he will deliver us out of it and so the problem we have as humans is there's something very Transcendent to our lives and it's not the 70 or 80 years that we are here right like we're gonna we're literally going to head into eternity and realize that when he says you are about a vapor like really our life here was a vapor and the only real question is is do we trust him and do we um have the peace that comes from knowing that this is all just temporal and you know someone people say to me time well don't worry your kids will come back I'm like well I know that like like maybe it makes you feel better to say that because it's the cliche thing to say but I actually know my kids are coming back because I know my father and I know his word and and he is pursuing them right I'm pursuing them but I can't do near what he can do to pursue them and they're coming back and it's not because of me it's because of him and it's for him right he'll finish what he started he says he'll leave the 99 to go get the one lost sheet yeah and so our my only responsibility is to walk that out and have that peace have that trust um and by the way uh when I was two weeks away I hope none of my employees watch this I was two weeks away from not being able to make my payroll in June I was like Lord I what gives um and he's like well I want you to rest and you're striving you're actually trying in your ego and your pride with the 68 hours you have you're trying to make this happen yeah and I'm going to do it and so I actually want you to take time off and so I took time off and um we went from being overdraft to having uh double what we needed uh in four weeks from June 4th to July 4th and I know it was just the Lord's way of sort of just showing off a bit and that wasn't Jesus in a lamp that was uh a son being submitted to a father's Authority and saying okay I trust you um and the thing is is sometimes it doesn't go good um and you're like okay has he abandoned me but even then it's like um I know he's building my character like you look at the story of Job I mean I can't even imagine when that first messenger came to job in the story of Job um the house collaps on his oldest son's house with all of his kids in it and guy comes in he's like house collaps all your kids are dead and then it's just messenger after messenger yeah um of all the horrific things that happened and job cursed the day that he was born but he never cursed God I don't if you ever really noticed that yeah yeah uh and he actually said um though you slay me yet will I trust you in Job 13:15 and I think that that's really the the peace comes from getting to a place where your view of God is such that you know in his sovereignty that he does love you and whatever is happening even if it seems horrific um if you give him time uh something miraculous it will transpire in your life yeah and you might not even see it until we've died and gone into eternity which for a non-Christian is like what who cares I'm dead but it's like you're not your body is dead but your soul is going to go on for thousands of years yep so that's where for me the peace comes from yeah yeah um well there's a and there's a joy in that isn't there and this is I think where Joy comes from is when actually um you know you talk about joy in uh having a joy in life it's not a it's not burying your head in the sand it's not pretending that things aren't actually going on it's knowing that in spite of them God is ultimately going to win and there's a joy that comes from that so in the midst and and scripture talks about this doesn't it in in terms of in the midst of the trial in terms of the midst of tribulation we can count it all joy when we get into these things because tribulations James 1 vers2 yeah right Jesus brother Jesus's own brother said that and he mocked Jesus he's like oh come on like I grew up in the same house as you yeah right and then he he put he writes those words and he becomes the leader of the most persecuted church of his day in Jerusalem right yeah yeah so it doesn't end well for James either but it's no it's it's one of those where he like can it all joy and you kind of look at that and go that does not make sense from a natural standpoint but when we look at the beginning to end in the context of Eternity in the context of the fullness of God you're like okay this changes everything you know I was at a wedding the other day with my wife Shan and I we went to a friend's wedding beautiful ceremony um now Tony when he got he got married a few a number of years ago to his first wife Ruth and Ruth died of cancer um everyone was praying for everyone loved Ruth Ruth was an absolute Legend the just one of the loveliest people on the planet but she and you know I've seen God heal all kinds of crazy things so everyone was praying for her and um but she was and she until until her last breath she she was like no God can heal me I know that but if he doesn't then dot dot dot and they they made a whole bun plans Tony uh met one of Ruth's friends from University who lost her husband early he died and so those two got together out of grief they fall in love at first sight and I went to their wedding so it was I've been to both Tony's weddings and the second wedding a few weeks ago everyone's in bits everyone's in tears because we're so happy in some respects for Tony and you know there's some Redemption that's come out of this sadness MH um and that it was at that it took him several minutes to say it actually in the vows to say till death is dup po because for him that's that real he knows what that means he knows exactly what that means he has been through the cace and you know what they both have and they're both sweet and lovely people and they are still so committed to God and and they're very much like I don't understand it I don't you know you can't I can't give you Rhyme or Reason but I can tell you God is with me and here's how God dies a bow on that right um so here are these two people that have this tragic loss they by way of restoration come to each other under god um and God can take their like I always say there's no testimony with a test right testimony and um think about how that couple can be a force of nature for people going through similar difficulties loss going forward just like even for young couples like I mean what I don't know what divorce rates are in the UK but in North America we're pushing 58% I mean why hav bother get married yeah right well in Quebec actually they charge you to change your last name to your husband's name because they're so sick and tired of changing a back I'm not kidding so um so but but think about what a Powerhouse couple they would be for young people in counseling um when it comes to sticking to their vows and recognizing that their vow is not just between the two of them but it's actually much more importantly between them and God and it's a triangle with God at the top of it um Sarah and I talk about that all the time like you know like with her health issues she's having with her concussion it has been hard and it's been since April and she can't work right so that puts pressure on us as a couple um but for for both of us I know we're we're at it's like okay well this vow was was between Sarah and God and Jonathan and God M and then it's between Sarah and Jonathan and so you know imagine a couple like that um counseling young couples around the nuances of marriage and their vows going forward right um what a God story yeah and it you know the Redemption is quite extraordinary and and I'm going to be inviting them around to dinner soon catch up with them because I I I I here's the thing Jonathan Wright I people ask me who inspires you right and the people that inspire me are the people that have gone through some of the most heartbreaking stuff that I I not experienced my wife is still alive we've been married 26 years she is an absolute amazing person and I'm super grateful for every day right so that's my story but the people like Tony and Jean who have lost husbands or people that have been through divorce or um people that have dealt with insane levels of sickness you know some friends of V survivors of breast cancer or um you know the fact she's on the what's the story podcast Annie Odin tells her story of how dealing with cancer we've got um friend you know who's who's got who's had a pacemaker fitted on their Bell and had I mean just incredible stuff they go through it and they are so sweet in their relationship with God they're just so humble and kind and they're beautiful people they have no resentment they have no bitterness and they just live off the mercy of God and you you can't help but be who are the most inspiring people they're the most inspiring people they don't go they don't go to Pieces they not that that I've got issues with people asking questions or going to Pieces but it's more they come out the other side refined and just better Lovelier people and they're the most yeah character yeah they build character yeah it's funny when you and I we gota we we'll have to wrap up here but when you said you know what's the difference between Godly masculinity and toxic masculinity before we came online and I'm working on the immersive study for fathers for fathers so it's like an alpha program Just For Men and my my publisher yesterday we spent about four or five hours on it because it was Veterans Day in the US and remember stay in Canada for our vets and so after we um took in the the Ceremonies for for the the brave men and women who died we um um we were working on that and um he said what what's the number one characteristic of a godly man I said humility um a man who's been through the fire who has developed all those fruits of the spirit longsuffering you know love joy peace kindness uh and it goes on um there's a real humble Spirit about those men M um they're very deliberate um um you know they their personality stay there like like you know my EA who's buzzing me right now uh to get into my next meeting um I was very flattered she said you know like you are a very gregarious focused hardworking deliberate driven guy but she said you're also very humble like like uh and I to me that is the greatest compliment anybody could give me because I am not I am out of the box my default program was not humility uh going back to you know you're talking about the 20-year-old son but uh God has humbled me as a way of refining my character so that it's like okay you've got all these natural talents but I need to I need to harness that I need you to be humble I need to take you through some trials and some tribulation and some storms where you really are rocked to the point where you are dependent on me and by virtue of that you you uh know that it's you know by my grace that you go um um and so yeah to finish up you know the encouragement I would have for guys is if you don't know Christ if you haven't really given God much of much thought think about this in your heart of hearts do you recognize something is very wrong with our world and if the answer is yes then you're not alone because it's always been there you know we have technology and sophistication that we didn't have 150 years ago but the human heart has had a condition throughout all of human history and um I would just encourage you to explore what God has to say and I I read the Quran in English I I looked at other religions and what I found fascinating about the Christian religion was that uh it's the only thing you don't have to do anything to earn it it's a free gift uh you just have to receive it and you have to recognize that that you have an ailment that you can't fix and he's telling you he's already fixed it and so if that offends you um I would almost want you to call me directly so we can hack it out some more because there was a time when it offended me like it that offended me yeah right um and it's it's meant to offend but in a good way yeah so fantastic have the GS to follow your calling I think is um I'd like that you know that the whole guts to just do it and and check it out but Jonathan thank you yeah thank you so much man love yeah thanks Matt yeah real blessing thank you for coming on again yeah man and um we'll get you over here to Canada maybe like I'll cook up some big excuse for you to speak and we can get you over here and uh we'll take we we won't get you to Vancouver maybe we can take you to TR blah and Quebec and you can on a you can ski on a 7,000 Foot Hill just let me know where I'm when I'm there all right you're a real blessing Jonathan thanks brother yeah right man God bless and just like that we've reached the end of another fascinating conversation crowd church is a digital Church a community a space to explore the Christian faith and a place where you can contribute and grow to find out more check out www.c crow. church and don't forget to subscribe to what's the story on your favorite podcast app we've got a whole lot of inspiring stories coming your way and we really don't want you to miss any of them what's the story is the production of crowd Church our fantastic team is made up of Anna Kettle Matt Edmonson Tanya hudac and myself sa fayan we worked behind the scenes to bring these stories to life our theme song is the created work of Josh Edmonson if you're interested in the transcript or show notes head over to our website whatastory podcast.com and sign up for our weekly newsletters to get all this goodness delivered straight to your inbox so that's all from us this week thank you so much for joining us and we'll catch you in the next episode bye for now